A dialogue concerning witches and witchcraftes In which is laide open how craftely the Diuell deceiueth not onely the witches but many other and so leadeth them awrie into many great errours. By George Giffard minister of Gods word in Maldon.

THE SPEAKERS.

Samuell. Daniell. The wife of Samuell. M. B. Schoolemaister. The good wife R.

Sam.

YOu are well mette olde ac∣quaintance, I am glad to seé you looke so well, howe doe all our good friendes in your Countrey.

Dan.

I trust they be all in good health, they were when I came from home, I am sorry to seé you looke so pale, what haue you beéne sicke lately?

Sam.

Truely no, I thanke God I haue had my health pretily well, but yet me thinke my meate doth me no good of late.

Dan.

What is the matter man, doe you take thought and care for the world▪ take heéde of that, for the Scrip∣ture saith, worldly sorrow worketh death. 2. Cor. 7.10. It is a great sinne rising from vnbeleéfe, and distrust in Gods prouidence, when men be ouer pensiue for the world.

Sam.

In deéde my minde is troubled, but not for that which you say, for I hope in God I shall not want so long as I liue.

Dan.

Is it any trouble of conscience for sinne? If it be, that may turne to good.

Sam.

O, no, no. I know no cause why.

Dan.

Why, what is it then, if I may be so bold, I pray

you tell me. I thinke you take me for your friend.

Sam.

In deede I haue alwaies found you my very good friend, and I am sure you will giue me the best counsell you can, truely we dwell here in a bad countrey, I think e∣uen one of the worst in England.

Dan.

Is it so? I thinke you dwell in a fine countrey, in a sweéte wholesome aire, and fruitfull grounds.

Sam.

Aire man? I finde no fault with the aire, there be naughty people▪

Dan.

Naughty people? where shall a man dwell, and not finde them? swearers, liars, raylers, slaunderers, drunckards, adulterers, riotous, vnthriftes, dicers, and proude high minded persons, are euery where to be founde in great plenty.

Sam.

Nay, I doe not meane them, I care not for them. These witches, these euill fauoured old witches doe trou∣ble me.

Dan.

What doe you take your selfe to be bewitched?

Sam.

No, no, I trust no euill spirite can hurt me, but I heare of much harme done by them: they lame men and kill their cattle, yea they destroy both men and children. They say there is scarce any towne or village in all this shire, but there is one or two witches at the least in it. In good sooth, I may tell it to you as to my friend, when I goe but into my closes, I am afraide, for I see nowe and then a Hare; which my conscience giueth me is a witch, or some witches spirite, sheé stareth so vppon me. And sometime I seé an vgly weasell runne through my yard, and there is a foule great catte sometimes in my Barne, which I haue no liking vnto.

Dan.

You neuer had no hurt done yet, had you by a∣ny witch?

Sam.

Trust me I cannot tell, but I feare me I haue,

for there be two or three in our towne which I like not, but especially an old woman, I haue beéne as careful to please her as euer I was to please mine own mother, and to giue her euer anon one thing or other, and yet me thinkes shee frownes at me now and then. And I had a hogge which eate his meate with his fellowes and was very well to our thinking ouer night, and in the morning he was starke dead. My wife hath had fiue or sixe hennes euen of late dead. Some of my neighbours wishe me to burne some thing aliue, as a henne or a hogge. Others will me in time to seéke helpe at the handes of some cunning man, before I haue any further harme. I wold be glad to do for the best.

Dan.

Haue you any cunning man hereabout, that doth helpe?

Sam.

There is one, they say, here a twenty miles of at T. B. which hath holpe many. And thus much I know, there was one of mine acquaintance but two miles hence, which had great losses, he lost two or threé kine; six hogs, he would not haue tooke fifteene shillings a hog for them, and a mare. He went to that same man, and told him hee suspected an old woman in the parish. And I think he told me, that he shewed him her in a Glasse, and tolde him shee had threé or foure imps, some call them puckrels, one like a gray catte, an other like a weasell, an other like a mouse, a vengeance take them, it is great pitty the countrey is not ridde of them, and told him also what he shoulde doe, it is halfe a yeare agoe, and he neuer had any hurt since. There is also a woman at R. H. fiue and twenty miles hence, that hath a great name, and great resort there is dayly vnto her. A neighbour of mine had his childe taken lame, a girle of ten yeares olde, and such a paine in her backe, that shee could not sit vpright. He went to that woman, she tolde him he had some badde neighbour, the childe was forespoken, as he suspected; marry if he would goe home, and bring her som of the clothes which the child

lay in all night, sheé would tell him certainely. He went home, and put a table Napkin about her necke all night, and in the morning tooke it with him, and sheé told him the girle was bewitched in deede, and so told him what hee should doe, and he had remedy, the girle is as wel at this day, and a pretty quicke girle. There was another of my neighbours had his wife much troubled, and he went to her, and sheé tolde him, his wife was haunted with a Fairy. I cannot tell what sheé bad him doe, but the woman is me∣ry at this howre. I haue heard, I dare▪ not say it is so, that sheé weareth about her Sainct Iohns Gospel, or some part of it.

Dan.

If you haue such cunning men and women, what neede you be so much afraide?

Sam.

Alas man, I could teeme it to goe and some coun∣sell me to goe to the man at T. B. and some to the woman at R. H. And betweene them both I haue lingred the time, and feare I may be spoiled before I get remedy. Some wishe me to beate and claw the witch vntill I fetch bloud on her, and to threaten her that I will haue her han∣ged, if I knew which were the best I would doe it.

Dan.

I perceiue your danger is betweéne two stooles.

Sam.

It is very true, if I had heard but of one, I should haue gone ere this time, and I am glad that I met with you. I pray you let me haue your best counsell; I trust you beare me good will.

Dan.

Truely I will giue you the best counsell I can, which I am sure shall doe you good, if you will followe it, for in deéde I pitty your case, it is most certaine you are bewitched.

Sam.

Bewitched, doe you thinke I am bewitched? I feele no harme in my body, you make me more afraide.

Dan.

Nay I doe not thinke that the olde woman hath bewitched you, or that your body is bewitched, but the di∣uell hath bewitched your minde, with blindnes and vnbe∣leéfe,

to draw you from God, euen to worship himselfe, by seéking help at the hands of deuils. It is a lamentable case to seé how the deuill hath bewitched thousands at this day to run after him: and euen to offer sacrifice vnto him.

Sam.

I defie the deuill, worship him? fie vpon him, I hate him with all my hart. Do you thinke any seéke help at his hands? we seek help against him. I think he neuer doth good he hurteth, but he neuer helpeth any.

Dan.

It is not in these matters to be taken as wee i∣magine, but as the word of God teacheth. What though a man think he worshippeth not deuils nor seeketh not help at their handes, as he is persuaded, nor hath any such in∣tent, is he euer the neére, when as yet it shall be found by Gods word, that he doth worship them, and seék vnto them for help?

Sam.

Doe you thinke then that there be no witches? Doth not God suffer wicked people to do harme? Or doe you thinke that the cunning men doe helpe by the deuill? I would be glad to reason with you, but I haue smal know∣ledge in the scripturs. We haue a Schoolemaister that is a good pretie scholler, they say, in the Latine tongue, one M. B. he is gone to my house euen now, I pray you let me intreat you to go thither, you two may reason the matter, for you are learned.

Dan.

I could be content, but it will aske some time, and I am going to such a place vpon speciall busines.

Sam.

I pray you let mee intreat you: Foure or fiue houres is not so much.

Dan.

Well, I will goe with you.

Sam.

Wife, I haue brought an olde friend of mine, I pray theé bid him welcome.

The wife.

He is verie welcome. But trulie man, I am angrie with you, and halfe out of patience, that you go not to seéke helpe against yonder same olde beast I haue a∣nother hen dead this night. Other men can seéke remedy.

Here is M. B. tels me, that the good wife R. all the laste weeke could not make her butter come. She neuer rested vntil she had got her husbande out to the woman at R. H. and when he came home, they did but heat a spit red hotte, and thrust into the creame, vsing certaine wordes, as shee willed him, and it came as kindly as anie butter that euer she made. I met the olde filth this morning, Lord, how sow∣erlie she looked vpon me, & mumbled as she went, I heard part of her wordes. Ah (quod she) you haue an honest man to your husband, I heare how he doth vse me. In trueth, husband, my stomacke did so rise against her, that I coulde haue found in my heart to haue flowen vpon her, and scrat∣ched her, but that I feared she would be too strong for me. It is a lustie olde queane. I wished that the good wife R. had bene with me. I pray you, good husbande, let me in∣treat you to goe to that same good woman, you may ride thither in halfe a day.

Sam.

Wife, I pray theé be content, I haue intreated this mine olde friend to reason with M. B. for he tels mee that we be in a verie foule errour.

M. B.

I suppose, so farre as my learning and capaci∣tie doe extend, that small reasoning may serue. The worde of God doeth shew plainlie that there be witches, & com∣maundeth they should be put to death. Experience hath taught too too manie, what harmes they doe. And if anie haue the gift to minister help against them, shall we refuse it? Shall we not drinke when we are a thirst? Shall wee not warme vs when wee are a colde? It is pitie that anie man should open his mouth anie way to defend them, their impietie is so great.

Dan.

For my part, I go not about to defend witches. I denie not but that the deuill worketh by them, And that they ought to be put to death. We ought also to seeke re∣medie against them: but as I told my friend, the deuil doth bewitch men by meanes of these witches, and lead them

from God, euen to follow himself, to offer sacrifice vnto him to worship him, to obey his wil, to commit manie grieuous sinnes, and to be drowned in manifold errours.

M. B.

If you haue this meaning, that witches and sorcerers ar bewitched by the deuil, that they forsake God, and follow him, that they worship and obey him, and doe sacrifice vnto him, and commit manie hainous sinnes, I a∣greé with you, for I tak it, they euen vow themselues to the deuill, or els he would not be so readie to doe them seruice. But if you mean, that such as seek remedie against them, & wold haue them rooted out, be so seduced and mis-led by the deuill, as you speake, I say your speach is rash and foolish, for they that be earnest against witches, be earnest against the deuil, they defie the deuil, they seek to resist him, and to roote out his instruments. Now, if you were a man that had any learning, you should seé, that contraries cannot be in the same subiect, at one instant, in the same part, and in the same respect: how then can a man hate the deuill, defie the deuill and his workes, and yet follow him at one time?

Dan.

I know that witches and coniurers are seduced and become the vassals of Satan: they be his seruants, and not he theirs, as you speake. But I mean indeed that mul∣titudes are seduced and led from God, to follow the deuil, by means of witches & coniurers: yea, I speak it of those, not which are caried of a godlie zeale, but of a blinde rage and mad furie against them. If I speake this rashlie and foolishlie, as you say, and your self learned as you boast, and I vnlearned, I shall be the more easilie ouerthrowne. But I speake so truly, and can so well iustifie all that I haue said by the word of God, that your learning and best skill, shall not be able to disprooue the same. Your logicke at the first doth faile you. Not that contraries can be in the same subiect at the same instant, in the same part, and in the same respect. But herein you are vtterly blinde and decei∣ued, that you name contraries, and take it that the first of

them, as namelie to hate the deuill, to defie him and his workes, are in them, when as indeed they are in them but in imagination. For if men say and think they defie the de∣uill and his workes, and through blindnes and infidelitie, are euen bewitched, and seduced to followe the deuill, and to do his will, doth their speach and blinde imagination make the things indeed to be in them? What if a poore beg∣ger woman say and thinke that she is a Queéne: is she ther∣fore no begger, begging still her bread? or is she rid of her lice?

M. B.

Nay, if you iudge, I haue done. If men be ear∣nest against the deuill, and defie him and all his workes, are you to iudge of their conscience, and to say they defie him but in imagination, and follow him, and worship him in deede? is not God alone the iudge ouer mens hearts? Againe, do you compare those that are in their right mind, with such as be mad, or out of their wits?

Dan.

I knowe that God alone is the searcher of the heart, touching the thinges which lie hid in secrete: But where things are open and manifest, the tree is known by the fruits, so far as we may goe. As if a man professe the faith of Iesus Christ soundlie, in all pointes according to the word of God, and doth frame his life thereafter in do∣ing good workes: it is verie wicked for anie man to iudge of him, that he is an hypocrite, and that he doth all of vaine glorie. And yet it may be that the Lord, who discerneth the secrete intents of the heart, seeth indeed that he is but an hypocrite. On the contrarie parte, where a man professeth in wordes that he doeth defie the deuill and all his workes, and yet when it commeth to the triall of Gods word, hee is found to be seduced, and wrapped in blinde errours of the deuill, in infidelitie, and euill works, in which he fulfilleth the will of Satan, and honoureth him in the place of God: Shal we say that this is a good man because of his words and imagination, that he defieth the deuill and his works?

Wo be to them that cal good euil, and euil good. Esa. 5. We may say they are in bad case, except they repent, and turne from following Satan. But yet I say, that a faithful man may erre in some of these thinges through weaknesse of faith, and through ignorance. And therefore, here men may not be too rash in iudgment. And now wheras you find fault, that I make comparison between such as be mad and those that be in their right mind▪ it is your ignorāce, which do not consider that ther be two kinds of madnes, or being out of their right mind, the one for matters of this worlde, the other for thinges spirituall and heauenlie. There bee which are in their wittes for this worlde, which touching spirituall things are as farre awrie in their imaginations, as the poore beggar, which thinketh she is a goodlie queene. Doth not the holie Apostle say, that because men receiue not the loue of the truth, God wil send them strong de∣lusion to beleeue lies. 2. Thess. 2. And what is that, but that Satan shall seduce, illude and bewitch their minds, to make them beleeue that they worshippe and follow God, when they worship and follow him?

M. B,

Doe you take that to be S. Paules meaning? Doth Satan bewitch mens mindes, and leade them into falsehoode and errour, making them beleéue they worshipp God, when they worship deuils?

Dan.

S. Paul speaketh there indeéd of the comming of the great Antichrist in the power of the Deuill. Nowe, those which are seduced and worship Antichrist▪ think they worship God: but marke what S. Iohn sayth, All the world wondred, and followed the beast, and worship∣ped the dragon which gaue power to the beast: & they worshipped the beast. Reuelat. 13. And looke in the 12. chapter of the Reuelation, and you shall find that the Dra∣gon, which the Popery doth worship in stead of God, is the Deuill.

M. B.

Trulie I like your wordes well, I am persua∣ded

the deuill doth seduce and bewitch mens mindes: But touching these that seek help at the hands of cunning men and women against witches, I cannot thinke so hardlie of them. I may be awry, I seé well: I will not be obstinate, if the word of God shew me mine errour▪ Let vs euen friend∣ly conferre of the matter. Be not offended with me, and for my part, I will speake all that I knowe or thinke.

Dan.

I must intreate you likewise to beare with my plaine speaches. And let vs in the matters proceéde from one point to another, standing onlie vpon that, wherein we shall be found to differ in iudgment. And let Gods word be the Iudge betweene vs.

Sam.

I like this wel, though I can say but litle, I wil sit and heare you.

Dan.

What is the first question that we shal handle?

M. B.

I heard you say, if I did not mistake your speach that there be witches that worke by the deuill. But yet I pray you tell me, doe you think there be such? I know some are of opinion there be none.

Dan.

It is so euident by the Scriptures, and in all ex∣perience, that there be witches which worke by the deuill, or rather I may say, the deuill worketh by them, that such as go about to prooue the contrarie, doe shewe themselues but cauillers.

M. B.

I am glad we agreé in that point, I hope we shall in the rest. What say you to this? that the witches haue their spirits, some hath one, some hath more, as two, threé, foure, or fiue, some in one likenesse, and some in another, as like cattes, weasils, toads, or mise, whome they nourish with milke, or with a chicken, or by letting them sucke now and then a drop of blood: whome they call when they be of∣fended with anie, and send them to hurt them in their bo∣dies; yea, to kill them, and to kill their cattell?

Dan.

Here is great deceit, and great illusion, here the deuil leadeth the ignorant people into foule errours,

by which hee draweth them hedlong into manie grieuous sinnes.

M. B.

Nay then I seé you are awrie, if you denie these things, and say they be but illusions. They haue bene proo∣ued, and prooued againe, euen by the manifold confessions of the witches themselues. I am out of all doubt in these, and could in manie particulars lay open what hath fallen out. I did dwell in a village within these fiue yeares, where there was a man of good wealth, and suddainlie within ten daies space, he had three kine died, his gelding worth ten pounds fell lame, he was himself taken with a gret pain in his back, & a child of seuē years old died. He sent to the wo∣man at R. H. and she said he was plagued by a witch, ad∣ding moreouer, that there were three women witches in that towne, and one man witch: willing him to look whom he most suspected: he suspected one old woman, and caused her to be caried before a Iustice of Peace and examined: with much a doe at the last shee confessed all: Which was this in effect: that she had threé spirits: one like a cat, which she called Lightfoot, another like a Toad, which she called Lunch, the third like a Weasill, which she called Make∣shift. This Lightfoot, she said, one mother Barlie of W. solde her aboue sixteene yeares agoe, for an ouen cake and told her the Cat would doe hergood seruice, if she woulde, she might send her of her errand: this Cat was with her but a while, but the Weasill and the Toad came and offered their seruice: The Cat would kill kine, the Weasil would kill horses, the Toade would plague men in their bodies. She sent them all threé (as she confessed) against this man: She was committed to the prison, and there shee died be∣fore the Assises. I could tell you of manie such: I had no minde to dwell in that place any longer.

Dan.

You mistake me, I do not meane that the things are not, but my meaning is, that the deuill by such thinges both beguyle and seduce ignorant men, and lead them into

errours and grieuous sinnes. And let vs examine euerie parcell of that which you set down in your speach, and you shall seé no lesse.

M. B.

That is it which I would faine seé: You confesse they haue spirits, some one, some more, and in such like∣nesses: what errour be the people led into by that?

Dan.

First, cōsider this that ther be multituds & armies of deuils, as we seé in the gospel, y^t manie deuils wer entred into one man, & Christ saying, What is thy name? answer is made, Legion, for we are manie. Mark. 5. Now, al∣though the deuils be manie, yet they be all caried with such hatred against God, with such desire to haue him dishono∣red and blasphemed, and burne with such bloudy malice and crueltie against men, that they bend their studie all to∣gether, one helping and furthering another what they can in their worke: in so much that the Scripture doeth speake of them, as if they were but one deuill: for S. Peter sayth, Your aduersarie the deuill goeth about like a roring li∣on seeking whom he may deuour. 1. Pet. 5. And in the Reuelation chapter 12. all the deuils make that great red dragon: And our Sauiour doth shewe how close they ioyne in one, when he saith, If Satan be deuided against Satan, or if Satan cast foorth Satan, how shall his kingdom en∣dure Matth. 12. now then, whether the witch deale, as sheé supposeth, with one spirit, or with manie, it commeth all to one effect, thus farre, that one dealeth not alone, but with the helpe of others. So that he or she that hath familiaritie with one deuill, it is as much as if it wer with an hundreth. Moreouer, the deuils be spirits, they haue no bodily shape or likenesse but yet can make an apparance of a shape, as appeareth by the inchanters before Pharao, when their rods were turned into serpents in shew. Exod. 7. And then one deuill can seém to be foure or fiue, and foure or fiue can seéme to be one: It is therefore but the craft of Satan, to make shewe of more or lesse.

M. B.

Do you not thinke then, that where the more de∣uils be, there is the greater power of Satan?

Dan.

Yes, but it can not be discerned by his appearing to the witch in shew of more or lesse: For one can seéme ten vnto her, and ten can seéme one.

M. B.

Well, I doe not mislike al this, I pray you pro∣ceed forward.

Dan.

Then further marke well howe the holie Scrip∣tures doe paint out the deuils to bee mightie terrible spi∣rits, full of power, rage, and crueltie, compared to a great fierie red dragon, Reuel. 12. to a greedie or hungrie lion, that roreth after the pray, 1. Pet. 5. And called by S. Paul Principalities, and Powers, the Rulers of the darknesse of this world: now, when they take vpon them the shapes of such paltrie vermine, as Cats, Mise, Toads, and Wea∣sils, it is euen of subtiltie to couer and hide his mightie ty∣rannie, and power which he exerciseth ouer the heartes of the wicked. It is most necessarie for vs all to know, what strong aduersaries we haue to encounter withall, that we may fly vnto the Lord God, and seek to bee armed with his power against them.

M. B.

Well, what will you inferre vpon this? I can∣not deny but that the scriptures doe paint out the deuils to be mightie terrible spirits, and so they may be, although they appeare but like Cats or weasils.

Dan.

I doe not say they be not mightie and terrible be∣cause they appeare in such shapes, but I affirme, that their appearing so, is to couer and hide their mightinesse and effectuall working, which they exercise in the darke harts of men. And marke well I pray you, the power of deuils is in the hearts of men, as to harden the heart, to blinde the eies of the mind, and from the lustes and concupiscences which are in them, to inflame them vnto wrath, malice, en∣uy, and cruell murthers: to puffe them vp in pride, arro∣gancy and vaine glory: to entice them vnto wantonnesse,

and whordomes, and all vncleannesse. And about these things they worke continually, and with such efficacy, that without the power of the glorious passion and resurrecti∣on of our Lord Iesus Christ, which we haue by faith, they cannot be withstood, and they will seeme to be but meane fellowes, busied about making drink that it shall not work in the fat, in keéping cheése from running, and butter from comming, in killing hennes or hogges, or making men lame.

M. B.

May they not doe both the one and the other?

Dan.

Yea, but this is my meaning, that while they be occupied about the greatest things, as in stirring vp Ty∣rants and wicked men to persecute, to reproch and blas∣pheme the Gospell, which pulleth them downe, to set diui∣sion and warres between kingdoms and kings, hatred and discord betweén man and wife, and contention betweene brethren: yea, to set all in a broyle and confusion: they would seéme to be busied about trifles, and about these they busie mens mindes, that they may not obserue and take heed of them in those other.

M. B.

I perceiue your meaning, but yet I doe not conceiue whereunto you chiefly tend: for do not they which looke vpon these harmes done by witches, confesse that the deuill doth all those things which you mention?

Dan.

The ignorant sort, which are so terrified by wit∣ches, do in words after a sort, confesse so much as you say, but when it commeth to the matter, they deny it in effect. For mark this, the deuils continuallie compasse the soule of man about, to shoot it full of their fierie dartes. Ephes. 6. euen to wound it to death with all wicked sinnes. The de∣uill goeth about like a roring lion, seeking whome hee may deuour. 1. Pet. 5. And they by this craft which they vse by means of the witches, make the blind people imagin that they neuer come nigh them, but when the witches are angrie and doe send them, and that they are easilie driuen

away when they do come, as by burning some quick thing, as henne, or hogge, or by beating and drawing bloud vpon the witch. Such people as can thus driue him away, or by thrusting a spitte red hot into their creame, are farre from knowing the spirituall battel, in which we are to warre vn∣der the banner of Christ against the deuill, much lesse doe they know how to put on (as S. Paule willeth) the whole armour of God, to resist and ouercome him. Ephes. 6. He may deale with their soules euen as he listeth, when they take him not present but vpon such sending, and where such hurt doth follow in their bodies or goods.

M. B.

I doe not denie, but that the deuils seeke chiefly for to destroy the soules of men: But (as I tak it) you con∣fesse, that they being sent by the witches, doe also those bo∣dilie harmes: and as yet I see no reason why they may not seeke remedie against such harmes, and driue him away by anie good meanes: doth the worde of God forbid vs to vse meanes? If I be sicke, shall I not take physicke? If I bee thirstie, shall I not drinke? Indeed I am of your minde, though I did neuer marke so much before, that the deuill dealeth subtillie in this, that by dealing in such small mat∣ters, he couereth himselfe in the greater, as though he came not neere, nor did not medle but in such maner: But here standeth the case, I resist him in those greater, may I not also vse those helpes which driue him away in the lesser? I will if I can driue him away in all things.

Dan.

Now the deuils are sent by the witches, and how they doe those bodily harmes, wee are not yet come vnto, and there lie two of the chiefe subtilties of the deuill in them, by which he deceiueth the multitude. But by occasi∣on we are fallen into the mention of remedie to driue them away▪ Because (I say) such as thus driue him away, know not the spirituall battell, much lesse how to put on the whol armour of God to ouercome the deuil: Order doth require that we speak first of his sending, and then of those bodilie

harmes which he doth, & afterward of these meanes which are vsed to repell him. Let vs therefore step one step backe againe, if you agreé to the rest which I haue spoken.

M. B.

With a good will: for so we shall omit no part. But I thought we had fullie agreéd in this, that the wit∣ches do send their spirits, and doe manie harmes both vnto men and beasts: because we haue it confirmed by daylie ex∣perience: and vnlesse you will denie that which is manifest, I doubt not but we shall accorde in these.

Dan.

I say the witches do send their spirits.

M. B.

What shal we neéd then to stand vpon that point in which we are agreéd?

Dan.

Yes· though we agree that they send them, yet we may dissent in diuers thinges about this sending. As first, tell me, whether doe you thinke that the witch or the Deuill is the seruaunt, which of them commaundeth, and which obeyeth?

M. B.

How can I tell that? It is thought hee becom∣meth her seruaunt, and where she is displeased, and would be reuenged, she hyreth him for to doe it. The witches thē∣selues haue confessed thus much: and for my part, I think no man can disprooue it.

Dan.

They that doe the will of God are the children and seruants of God. And they which fulfill the lustes of the deuill, and obey him, are his children & his seruantes, Ioh. 8. vers. 44. Act. 13. vers. 10. Are they not?

M. B.

I graunt all this?

Dan.

The deuilles are the rulers of the darknesse of this world. Ephes. 6. ver. 12.

M. B.

The text is plaine.

Dan.

The darknesse of this world, is not meant of the darknesse of the night, which is but the shadow of the earth, but it is the spiritual darknes, which consisteth in the igno∣rance of God, in infidelitie, and in sinne.

M. B.

I am of your mind in this also.

Dan.

And doe you not thinke then that the deuill hath his throne, his dominion and kingdom in the hearts of ig∣norant blind infidels?

M. B.

I must neéds thinke he hath, the word of God doth force me thereunto: seéing he is the Prince of darke∣nesse.

Dan.

And is there anie greater infidelitie and dark∣nesse in anie, than in witches, coniurers, and such as haue familiaritie with deuils?

M. B.

I tak it they be the depest ouerwhelmed in dark∣nesse and infidelitie of all other.

Dan.

Lay all these thinges together which you con∣fesse, and see whether it doth not follow vpon the same, that the witch is the vassall of the deuill, and not he her seruant; he is Lord and commaundeth, and she is his drudge and obeyeth.

M. B.

Yea, although he be Lord, yet he is content to serue her turne, and the witches confesse, they call them forth and send them: and that they hire them to hurt such in their bodies, and in their cattell, as they bee displeased withall.

Dan.

I am sorie you are so farre awrie, it is pitie any man should be in such errour, especiallie a man that hath learning, and should teach others knowledge.

M. B.

Nay, I may returne this vpon you, for if you will denie this, it is but a follie to reason any further: I will neuer be driuen from that which I knowe: There was one olde mother W. of great T. which had a spirite like a a Weasill: she was offended highlie with one H. M. home she went, and called forth her spirite, which lay in a pot of woll vnder her bed, she willed him to goe plague the man: he required what she would giue him, and he would kill H. M. She said she would giue him a cocke, which shee did, and he went, and the man fell sicke with a great paine in his bellie, languished and died: the witch was arraigned,

condemned, and hanged, and did confesse all this.

Dan.

I told you before that I do not deny these things, but you are deceiued about the doing: you marke not the cunning sleights of the deuill: Tel me, is not this the truth which S. Peter speaketh, that the deuil goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may deuoure. 1. Pet. 5.

M. B.

What then?

Dan.

What then? can you be so simple as to imagine that the deuill lieth in a pot of wooll, soft and warme, and stirreth not, but when he is hired and sent? The deuils con∣spire together in their worke, they bestirre them, and ne∣uer take rest night nor day: they are neuer wearie, they be not a colde, they care not for lying soft: These be fooleries by which hee deceiueth the witches, and bewitcheth the mindes of many ignorant people: And whereas you say he is hired, it is but deceit: for, let me aske you two or threé questions or more if neéd be.

M. B.

What be your questions?

Dan.

You say the witch commeth home angrie, who hath kindled this wrath in her heart but the deuill? Who inflameth her mind with malice, to be reuenged, and to doe mischiefe but the deuill? doth not he rule in her heart? Tell me what you thinke of this?

M. B.

I muste neédes confesse hee stirreth her vp to wrath and malice.

Dan.

Then he lieth not at home in his pot of wool: nor he is not hyred to this: hitherto she is his drudge, and o∣beyeth him, and not he her, being led by his suggestion. Then tell me, is not the deuill like a red or fierie dragon, Reuel. 12. burning in malice against God, and with all bloodie and cruell hatred that may be against men? And is he not farre readier vnto all mischiefe, than anie man or woman?

M. B.

The deuill is more fierce than any man or woman; none can deny this.

Dan.

If none can deny this, and he be the worker of the wrath and malice in the heart of the witch; then what neédeth he to be hyred? he stirreth her vp, and if he would, he could turn her mind from sending him, and must he he hy∣red? doth he care for a cock or a chicken? Is he hungry or neédeth he somewhat to eat?

M. B.

Nay, but it is thought he taketh those thinges to witnesse against the witch that she is his.

Dan.

Let it bee, there were somewhat in that which you speake, yet he hath a farre deéper reach; for the trueth is, hee woulde, and doeth perswade the blind people, that he medleth litle, but when he is euen hyred and sent, and that then his medling is but in such matters: And here∣upon all is on a broyle against old women, which can any wayes be suspected to be witches, as if they were the very plagues of the world, and as if all would be well, and safe from such harmes, if they were rooted out, and thus they fall a rooting out without all care▪ for it is thought that the witch which hath her spirits, is euen lyke a man which hath curst dogges, which he may set vpon other mens cat∣tell, which yet in the nature of dogs, would neuer styrre but when they are bidden: and so the harmes do come from the man which oweth those dogs. They think that the country might be ryd of such spirits, if there were none to hoister them, or to set them a worke. They imagine that they and their cattell should then goe safe. Alas poore creatures, how they be deluded? how litle do they vnderstand the high prouidence of almighty God which is ouer all.

M. B.

Doe you thinke then that witches ought not to be rooted out? or doe you thinke it were not much safety to the country from harmes, if it could be rid of them?

Dan.

For the rooting out of witches, the Scripture is plaine. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to liue: but we are not yet come to that poynt. But whether they be to be rooted out that men may be safe from harmes, as the peo∣ple

in fury and blindnesse imagine, that is next.

M. B.

Men feele the smart and the harmes which they doe, and it is no maruell, though they be earnest to haue them rooted out, and a good riddance it were if the whole land could be set freé from them.

Sam.

Trulie M.B. I am of your mind, I wold they wer all hanged vp one against another: we should not (I hope) stand in such fear of their spirits. But I interrupt you too.

The wife.

They that would not haue them hanged or burnt, I would they might euen witch them vnto hell. If I had but one fagot in the world, I would carry it a myle vpon my shoulders to burne a witch.

Dan.

Well good woman, spare your fagot a while, and ease your shoulders, and let vs reason the matter a lit∣tle further? I pray you let me aske you this question, doth the witch or the deuill the harme vnto men and cattell?

M. B.

Why, the deuill doth it at their sending▪ though I confesse it must neéds be as you said, that the deuil wor∣keth al in the mind of the witch, & mooueth her to send him.

Dan.

The deuill hath a kingdome, but it is in darke∣nesse and corruption of sinne. He hath no right nor power ouer Gods creatures, no not so much as to kill one flye, or to take one eare of corne out of anie mans barne, vnlesse power be giuen him. You know when Christ cast the deuils out of the man possessed, they aske leaue for to goe into the heard of swine. Then tell me, who giueth the deuill this power then, when the witch sendeth him, to kill or to lame man or beast? doth the witch giue it him? Do you think he had power to doe harme, but no mind till she mooued him? Or doe you take it that her sending giueth him power, which he had not?

M. B.

It is a question indeed worth the asking: For doubtlesse, the deuill hath not power vntill it be giuen him, to touch any creature, to hurt, or to destroy the body, but onely to tempt and to lead into sin: I am also sure that the

witch cannot giue him power, but onlie God aboue.

Dan.

Lay these two together then, that the deuill on∣ly hurteth, and that none can giue him power, neither man nor woman, but only God, and tell me whether the people be not wonderfully carried awry in a rage. For, when as they should consider, that the deuill is the Lordes executio∣ner: And then finding that he hath any power giuen him to molest, to hurt and vexe them in theyr bodies or goods, to know certainly it commeth from the Lord, and then ga∣ther from thence (as the trueth is) that the Lord is displea∣sed with them for their offences. And so seeke vnto him▪ humbly crauing pardon and deliuerance from this enemy, seéking to be armed with the mighty power of faith, to cast him foorth, and to resist him, as the Lord willeth, 1. Pet. 5 Here is no such matter, no looking so high among the peo∣ple, but running deéper into errour, and into sinne, as if the witches did it, and that it commeth from their anger and not from their owne sinnes and infidelity, here is no re∣pentance, no humbling themselues by fasting and prayer, but running for helpe vnto deuilles, vsing meanes which those deuils by the cunning men & women appoint, scrat∣ching and clawing, thirsting often after guiltles blood as raging against those whomethey imagine to be witches, which many times are not, because they imagine, that if there were no witches, ther should be no such plagues. As if they had no foule sinnes nor vnbeleéfe, or that there re∣mayned not a iust reuenging God to punish, or as if he had not the deuils still the executioners of his wrath.

M. B.

Truly your wordes doe make me affrayd: for I am euen guiltie of th••se thinges my selfe, if they be so grieuous, as you set them out: and by Gods grace I wil consider better of the matter: for I haue counselled manie to seék vnto those cunning folkes, and to vse such helpes as they prescribe, and you say, it is to seéke help at deuils. To seé that point we shal come anon: now I wold be resolued

about somewhat in your last speach; as namely, doe you cleare the witches, because God, and not they, giueth the deuil power, and doe you thinke that the deuils should kill men and their cattell, if they were not sent by witches? Should the harmes still follow, if there were no witches?

Dan.

That I say God alone, and not the witches, gi∣ueth power vnto the deuils to plague and torment: it is so euident as that I suppose a man shall hardlie meete with anie man so grosse but will confesse it. But this doeth not cleare the witches at all; for their sinne is in dealing with deuils, and that they imagine that their Spirits do those harmes, requested and hyred by them: when as indeéde the deuill, where he hath power giuen him to hurt, or where he knoweth death or grieuous diseases will follow either in man or beast, setteth the witch in a rage, and moueth her to send him. Concerning your other question, I say, we shall finde by the Scriptures, that if there were no witches at all, yet men should be plagued by the deuils in their bodies and goods. For touching the godly, the Lord doth vse Sa∣tan to afflict them in their bodies and in their goodes, for to trie their faith and patience: as the example of holie Iob doeth testifie in ample maner. It were vile follie and brutish to affirme, that witches did set on the deuils to kill his children, and to plague his bodie▪ And I hold it no smal follie, for anie man to think that the Lord doeth not nowe scourge his children, at the least some of them, for their good, by the deuill. There is no doubt, but the deuil hauing power giuen him to afflict, vseth all the craft hee can, and will seék to be sent by the witch, and so hee will make it knowne, because it may seéme to bee not from God, but from the anger of a poore woman. And now touching the wicked, which prouoke God by their wicked sinnes and vnbeleefe, may we not read in the scriptures that an euill spirite was sent of God vnto king Saul, which did haunt and vexe him? Was this spirit sent by a witch? Or the de∣uils

in the Gospell, which entred into the hearde of swine and drowned them? Did the Lord giue them power, and send them, and shall we be so sottish as to thinke, that hee sendeth not the deuill now against vngodly men, to plague and to destroy them? As I said before, here is the deepe craft of Satan, that he will couet to bee sent by witches, whereas indeed God hath sent him, seéing none can sende him but God. Againe, wee must consider that there bee naturall causes in the bodies of men and beastes of grie∣uous tormentes and diseases, yea euen causes of death. Nowe, they cannot be so secrete, but the deuill knoweth them, and euen when they are like to take effect. Then doth he plie it with the witch, setteth her in a furie, she sendeth him, euen vpon this sending the man or the beast suddain∣lie and strangely are tormented, fall lame, or die. Then the witch is suspected, examined, and confesseth that she killed such a man, or such a mans cattell, or made them lame. Here the people are set in a wonderfull maze and astonish∣ment, as if witches could plague men in their wrath, by sending their spirits, because they confesse they did it, whē their spirits doe lie and had no power, but the tormentes came by naturall causes. And to driue the people into a deéper madnes in this, & to mak them beleéue, that strange and suddaine torments and languishing diseases come by witches, he hath his other sort of witches, the cunning men and women, which tell euen vpon his worde, (which you know is to be trusted) that they be bewitched, that they bee haunted with fayries, and that ther be thus many witches therabout, in euerie town some.

M. B.

That is most true no doubt, which you speake, I doe not for my part knowe how to gainsay any one point thereof. Only I wonder at the craftinesse of the deuils in these things, that where they haue power graunted vnto them to hurt, they will be sent by the witches, as if they did it hired by them, and that you say where harmes doe fol∣low

men vpon naturall causes, that they can make shew as though they did them. But are you of this mind, that there should be as manie or all those harmes done by deuilles, if there were no witches, as there be now? Although I must needs confesse, that the witches can giue the deuil no pow∣er, nor he can take none by their sending: yet may it not bee that God giueth them power oftener because of those wit∣ches dealing with them, than if there were no witches at all?

Dan.

The craftinesse of deuils is such, as without the light of Gods worde, the wisest men vnder heauen muste neédes be deceiued thereby. We seé there be some men so deép in subtilties and can carie matters so close, that men can not discerne them: how much more the deuilles, which are exceédingly subtill, & craftie aboue the subtillest men? the question which you aske is (in my iudgment) somwhat hard: But this is vndoubted, that if the Lord God do giue vnto the deuils oftener power to hurt because of the wit∣ches, I meane because the deuils doe deale by such instru∣ments, it is in his heauie iudgment against the wickednes of the people, which despise the true and heauenlie light of his word. As S. Paule (prophecying of the comming of the great Antichrist) sheweth, that because men did not re∣ceiue the loue of the trueth, God gaue the deuill power by Antichrist and his ministers, to seduce by lying signes and wonders. Indeéd, I will not say that for the witch the de∣uill hath power giuen him, but for the wickednesse of the people, which deserue that by witches the deuill shoulde haue power to seduce them further. Here yet we muste take heéde of the common errour which a multitude are ca∣ried so hedlong withall, that they can by no means seé, that God is prouoked by their sinnes to giue the deuill such in∣struments to work withall, but rage against the witch, e∣uen as if she could do all.

M. B.

Surelie, I should bee a wretch to deny, that

God giueth the Deuilles power to plague and to seduce because of mens wickednes; but yet I would knowe whe∣ther a godly faythfull man or woman may not bee bewit∣ched? Weé seé the deuill had power giuen him ouer Iob?

Dan.

This example of Iob is not fit to prooue that a godly man may be bewitched, seéing the deuill is not sayde to deale by witches against him, but it doeth prooue, that not only the godlie, but euen the most godly (as holy Iob, who had none like him vpon earth) may for their triall be giuen into the handes of Satan to be afflicted and temp∣ted. And as I said, where Satan hath power granted him of God, to strike with bodily plagues any of the godly, for the triall of their fayth and patience, he will couet, if he can bring it about, to bee sent by some witch, and to haue it knowne that he was sent. But the faithfull are to turne theyr eies from the witch, and to deale with God, for from him the matter commeth. When they be tried; the Lord in his good time will deliuer them depending vpon him, to their great praise and glory, euen as valiant souldiers. It is therefore, of no great force, whether Satan come from the witch against the godlie, or whether he haue no witch to deale by: ouercome thou the deuill, and thou ouercom∣mest all. Indeéd among the more ignorant sort he preuay∣leth much, when he toucheth those which imbrace the liue∣ly word as sent from a witch. For many nowe doe euen quake and tremble, and their faith doth stagger. Hath heé power (thinke they) ouer such as be cunning in the scrip∣tures, then what are they the better for their profession? the witch is on their bones as well as vpon others. By this it might seéme, and so they take it, that other helpes and remedies are to be sought than by the scriptures. And so they run and seéke help where they ought not.

M. B.

Then I pray you, though I be already perswa∣ded it is naught to seéke to these cunning men for help a∣gainst witches, yet let vs conferre a little of that. There

be diuers things which haue persuaded me to thinke mar∣ueilous well of them, and euen as of such as God hath gi∣uen wisedome and skill vnto, euen for to doe much good. For we seé many receiue help by them, and are deliuered from the plagues which come by deuils. And first, I wold know how they can bee so earnest against witches, if they deale with the deuill, and so be indeéd witches themselues? how can they haue any mind in charity to doe good, to take pitie vpon such as be in misery? Or how will Satan driue forth Satan? For they no doubt, driue out deuilles out of some.

Dan.

I would come to aunswere your questions tou∣ching the seéking help at the hands of cunning men or wo∣men, but tell me firste, are you resolued touching the sen∣ding of the spirits, and touching the harms that are done? Me think you slip too suddainly from these points?

M. B.

I cannot tell whether I vnderstand your mea∣ning in euery thing, but sure, I haue bene in error great∣ly I must neéds confesse. And if you please, we may stande somewhat longer in these questions.

Sam.

Indeéd it is my desire that you woulde speake a litle playner of these poyntes: for I haue marked well all your talke, and cannot well conceiue of the last things you dealt in. With your leaue M. B. I would aske two or threé questions of my friend. Here was but seuen miles hence at W. H. one M. the man was of good wealth, and well accounted of among his neighbours. He pined away with sicknes halfe a yeare, and at last died. After hee was dead, his wife suspected ill dealing: she went to a cunning man, I know not where, and desired to know whereof her husband died. He told her that her husband died of witche∣rie: he asked her if she did not suspect any therabout. She sayd there was one woman which she did not like, one mo∣ther W. her husband and she fell out, and he fell sick with∣in two dayes after, and neuer recouered again. He shewed

her the woman as plaine in a glasse, as we seé one another, and in the very apparell she went in at that hower, for sheé ware an old red cappe with corners, such as women were wont to weare; and in that she appeared in the glasse: Hee taught her how she might bring her to confesse. Well, she followed his counsell, went home, caused her to be appre∣hended and caried before a Iustice of peace. He examined her so wisely, that in the end she confessed shee killed the man. She was sent to prison, she was arraigned, condem∣ned, and executed: And vpon the ladder shee seémed very penetent, desiring all the world to forgiue her. She said she had a spirit in the likenes of a yellow dun catte. This catte came vnto her, as she said, as she sat by her fire, when she was fallen out with a neighbour of hers, and wished that the vengeance of God might light vpon him and his. The catte bad her not be affraid, she wold do her no harme: She had serued a dame fiue yeares in Kent, that was now dead, and if she would, she would be her seruant. And wher∣as, said the Cat, such a man hath misused theé, if thou wilt I will plague him in his cattell She sent the Cat, she kil∣led threé hogs and one Cow. The man suspecting, burnt a pig aliue, and as she said, her cat wold neuer go thither any more. Afterward she fel out with that M. she sent her Cat, who told her, that she had giuen him that, which hee should neuer recouer: and indeéd the man died. Now doe you not thinke the woman spake the trueth in all this? Would the woman accuse her selfe falsely at her death? Did not the Cat become her seruant? Did not she send her? Did shee not plague and kill both man and beaste? What shoulde a man thinke of this?

Dan.

You propounde a particular example, and let vs examine euery thing in it touching the witch, for the womans fact that went to the wise man, wee are not yet come to that point. You say the Cat came to her when she was in a great rage with one of her neighbours, and did

curse, wishing the vengeance of God to fall vpon him and his.

Sam.

She said so indeéde, I heard her with mine own ears, for I was at the execution.

Dan.

Then tel me who set her in such a deuilish rage, so to curse & banne, as to wish that the vengeance of God might light vpon him and his? did not the Cat?

Sam.

Trulie I thinke the Deuil wrought that in her.

Dan.

Uerie well, then you seé the Cat is the beginner of this play.

Sam.

Cald you it a play? It was no play to some.

Dan.

Indeed the witch at last had better haue wrought hard, than bene at her play. But I meane Satan did play the Iugler: For, doth he not offer his seruice? Doth he not moue her to send him to plague the man? Tell me, is she so forward to send, as he is to be sent? Or doe you not take it, that he ruleth in her heart, and euen wholly directeth it to this matter?

Sam.

I am fully perswaded he ruleth her heart.

Dan.

Then was shee his drudge, and not he her ser∣uant, he needeth not to be hired nor intreated, for if her hart were to send him any where, vnto such as he knoweth hee cannot hurt, nor seeth how to make any shewe that he hur∣teth them, he can quickly turne her from that. Wel, the cat goeth and killeth the man, certain hogs and a Cow: howe could she tell that the Cat did it?

Sam.

How could she tell? why he told her man, and she saw and heard that he lost his cattell.

Dan.

The Cat would lie, would she not? for they say such cattes are lyers.

Sam.

I doe not trust the Cats wordes, but because the thing fell out so.

Dan.

Because the hogges and the Cow died, are you sure the Cat did kil them, might they not die of some natu∣rall causes as you seé both men and beasts are well, and die

suddainlie?

Sam.

That were strange, if they should die of naturall causes, and fall out so fit at the time after he was sent?

Dan.

It is not straunge at all, as marke what I tell you and you shall easily seé. There bee naturall causes of tortures and griefe, of lamenes, and of death in the bodies of men and beastes, which lie so hid and secrete, that the learneddest Physitians can not espie them, but the deuill seéth them, and can coniecture very neere the time, when they will take effect. Then doeth hee ply it, to bring the matter about that it may seéme he did it. If hee haue any witch to deale by, he stirreth vp some occasion to set her in a rage with that partie: and then he will be sent, and telleth her he doeth it. If he haue no witch to deale by, yet hee will set debate betweéne the partie and some other, whom he may bring into suspition, as his greatest desire is to haue innocent bloud shed.

Sam.

Here is a matter brought about indeéd, how could the Cat doe all this?

Dan.

I told you before, that the deuilles worke toge∣ther, and can speédilie and most craftilie compasse thinges, which are farre beyond the reach of mans capacitie. But sometime the deuill hath power giuen him to plague and doth the harme. Admit he had power giuen him, and did kill the cattell of this man: let vs come nowe to that, who think you, gaue him the power for to strike and kill? Did the witch giue him the power, or the Lord God?

Sam.

Nay surely, the witch cannot giue him power.

Dan.

Did he receiue power after she sent him?

Sam.

That cannot I tell.

Dan.

Thē mark a litle: he hath power giuē him to plague this man in his goods: he wil do it, but he will doe it crafti∣ly. The Lord gaue him power ouer the goods of holie Iob: he worketh by instruments, for he stirreth vp the Sabeis, and they take away his Oxen, and his Asses: he raiseth vp

also the Chaldeis, and they cary away his Camels, Iob. 1. Euen so, hauing power to strike, he wil be sent by a witch, he could doo it without her, but he gayneth much that way, as we shall seé when wee come to speake of the remedyes which men seeke.

Sam.

I wonder then that the man neuer had more hurt after he had burnt his pig aliue?

Dan.

O man, the Deuill can abide no roast meate, nor no fire, he is affraide, if they fall a roasting, that they will roast him. If they run at him with a spit red hot, they gas∣ter him so sore, that his dame shal go her self, if she will he will come no more there. But of these thinges we are to speake afterward in their place.

Sam.

You make the deuill wonderfull subtill.

Dan.

He is so subtill and full of all craft and sleight, that no earthly creature can escape from being seduced by him, without the light of Gods heauenly word. But let vs come now to the other man, whom the witch confessed shee killed by her Cat.

Sam.

Yea, that me thinketh is more than the other, the woman was told by the cunning man that her husband was killed by witcherie. The witch confessed so much at her death. The Cat told the witch, that she killed him.

Dan.

Here be a companie of credible persons to be be∣leeued: the cunning man saith the man was bewitched to death. Who told him that?

Sam.

His spirite that maketh the witch appeare in the glasse.

Dan.

That same Spirite, what doe you take him to be, an Angell, or a Deuill?

Sam.

Some of the cunning men say, they haue Moses or Elias, or the Spirite of some holy man.

Dan.

The Deuill can turne himselfe into the likenes of an Angell of light. For they that doe thinke the cunning men and women deale with any other Spirite than Sa∣tan,

haue no vnderstanding. Satan saith, the man was witched to death.

Sam.

Satan saith so, he is not to bee beleéued, but the witchconfesseth it was so.

Dan.

Who told the witch?

Sam.

Her Cat that she sent.

Dan.

What is the Cat, a deuill? then remember the prouerbe, aske his fellow if he be a theéfe. All the matter resteth vpon the testimony of deuils, and they not put to their oath. Wee will not ground vpon mans testimonie without an oath, and must we beleeue the bare worde of deuils?

Sam.

Do you thinke then that the man was not killed by witcherie?

Dan.

It may be the Lord had giuen Satan power to plague the man in his bodie, and then he vnder a colour would be sent by a witch. But it is most like that his bodie did languish and pine of naturall causes, which the deuill did know, and so would be sent, and seéme to do all, when as indeéd he had no power to touch him. For, although the Lord giue the deuill power, to strike some in their bodies for their haynous sinnes, yet the most which the witches thinke their spirits doe kill at their request, doe die of na∣turall diseases.

Sam.

Then it seémeth the witches are deceiued, and mocked, when he maketh them beleéue he doeth kill and plague when hee doeth not. And againe in this, where he hath power giuen him of God, to strike man or beast, hee could doe it, and would without the witch, and so vseth the witch for a collour to draw on worse matters.

Dan.

I am glad you take my meaning so right: for, thinke deéply of the matters, and you shall seé it must neéds be so.

Sam.

I interrupted M. B. I pray you goe forward now to the rest.

Dan.

Our matter which we come vnto nowe, is the helpe and remedie that is sought for against witches at the hands of cunning men. And now if it please you to pro∣pound your questions, I will answere to them the best I can.

M. B.

Nay truly, I seé already all is naught, but yet I will obiect those things which haue caried me awrie. I take it a man is to seék remedy against euils, & I thought it was euen a gift that God gaue vnto those whom we cal cunning men, that they did very much good by. When a thing is lost, when a thing is stollen, many goe to them, and they help them to it. I did know where the Communion cup was stollen: the Churchwardens rode to a wise man, he gaue them direction what night, and where they should stand, and the party that had stollen it should come thither, and confesse he had it: and certainly they had it againe. I did know one that had a child of fiue yeares old, a gyrle, it was taken piteouslie: the father was in great heauinesse, and knew not what to doe: some gaue him counsell to goe to a woman which dwelt ten miles from him, and to carie some of the clothes which the child lay in: he did so, the wo∣man told him that his child was bewitched, and if hee did not seéke remedie in time, the childe would be lost: Shee bad him take some olde clothes, and let the child lie in them all night, and then take and burne them: and he should see by the burning, for if they did burne black, that shewed the child was bewitched, and she said further that doubtlesse the witch would come thither: he followed her aduice, and sure as we be here, there came an old woman in, which he suspected, euen while they were burning, and made an er∣rand: the man made no more adoe, but euen laid his clow∣ches vpon her and clawed her vntill the blood ranne down her cheeks, and the child was well within two dayes after. I could tell you of a stranger thing, but I haue it but by report, but yet indeed by very credible report. There was

a butcher by his trade that had a boy to his sonne, his name was Iohn, grieuous sores did breake forth vpon him: they laid salues, and none woulde cleaue for to draw or to ease them. The father making his moane to a friend of his, he told him whether he should goe to a verie skilfull man. he did goe, and being demanded whom he suspected, she was shewed him in a glasse, an old woman that dwelt not farre from him in an house alone: he told the cunning man, that the woman had shut vp her dore, & was gone from home out of the shyre, and so he could not tell how to come by her. he told him a way how he should fetch her home. Cut off the hair (said he) of the boyes head, and put it in a cloath and burne it, and I warrant you she wil come home with al the speéd she can. Burne it abroade, burne it not in a chim∣ney, for if you doe, it will make you all affraide. The man went home and did this. The woman came home with all speéde, came to his house, came to the boy, and saide, Iohn, scratch me, hee scratched her vntil the blood follow∣ed, and whereas before nothing would draw his soares, they healed of themselues. What should a man thinke of such things?

Dan.

You tell of some, which haue receiued help from the hands of cunning men: And no doubt there may infinit examples be brought. Some haue lost, some haue thinges stollen from them, some are vexed in their bodies: They come by the things againe which were lost or stollen, they are taught to doe certain things, and are eased from their griefs. But this we must first knowe, they receiue their helpe, if it deserue the name to be called help, from the de∣uill. And do you thinke a man may lawfullie seek helpe at the hands of the deuill?

M. B.

Some are perswaded that they doe not seéke helpe at the hand of deuils, when they goe to the wise men: but that it is a gift which God hath giuen them, euen to do good withall.

Dan.

I doe verilie thinke that manie of the people are so perswaded: but what reason is there for it? Doeth God by his Spirit tell where the thing is which is lost, or stol∣len? Is it an Angell from heauen, or the soule of some man that is dead, which appeareth in the Chrystall, or in the glasse, and sheweth the image of the partie which hath stollen, or that is a witch?

M. B.

I had rather heare what you thinke touching these things, than shew what I haue thought.

Dan.

The deuils did make the heathen people beleéue that they were goddes, and so procured that they shoulde worship them with diuine worship. Through their crafti∣nes they had many wayes to establish this: they conueied themselues into images, and out of them gaue answeres, when they wer demanded, herein they vsed great craft. for whereas they could not tell what should fall out, they fra∣med the oracle in such sort as it was doubtfull, and might be taken both waies: and so looke which part it fell out on, that seemed and was taken to be the meaning of the gods. If they did know how things would fal out indeéd, as they did know sundry things touching the kingdomes and mo∣narchies of the world, by the writings of the Prophetes, and diuers things by coniectures, as the deuill could tell Saul he should be slaine, because he saw God had cast him off, and the hearts of the Israelits fainted, and the Phili∣stims were full of courage, those they would tell plainelie. Also they did conuey themselues into the bodies of men and women, and vtter thinges which seémed very diuine, such (as I am perswaded) were the Prophetisses the Si∣bylles among the heathen. Such was the maide at Phi∣lippos, which is mentioned in the Actes of the Apostles, which brought great gain vnto her maisters by deuining, out of whom Paule cast the deuill. This maide could tell of things lost, of things stollen, and such like, and great re∣sort there was vnto her, as men had neede, or desired to

see the strangenesse of the matter.

M. B.

Let me interrupt you a litle. The deuill can not be in all places at once: how could he then, remaining in the maide, tell what was done in places farre off? howe can the deuill tel where the thing lost or stollen is, which is not only farre off, but hidden? how can he shewe the image of the thiefe or witch? Can he sit and behold all thinges a farre off, and in secrete?

Dan.

We may not ascribe vnto Deuils that they can be in all places at once, or sit in one place and beholde all things done a farre off. But they ioyne together in this speciall worke, to set vp their kingdome, and to drawe the people after them, to seéke helpe at their handes, and so to worship them. Some of them be in one place, and some in another, and from all places doe stir vp the faithlesse peo∣ple to run for helpe to those cunning men, and then they make the relation, for they goe thither also, they know the thiefe whome they mooued to the theft, and can make re∣semblance of his face and apparell: they can tell where things be that are hid, hauing had a finger in the matter. And thus one spirite▪ as it doeth seéme▪ telleth things spo∣ken and done farre off, but it is otherwise, there be manie that doe it, which resort from all the places where the things are done.

M. B.

I am satisfied touching this point. You were shewing howe the deuils did deale among the heathen out of the Idols, and out of men and women.

Dan.

Yea, and they haue subtillie wound themselues in againe among Christians. For vsing witches as their instruments, they make them beléeue that they doe manie harmes sent by them, which they do not, and whereas they haue power giuen them by God to afflict, they will seeme to doe it at the wrath and displeasure of the witch, she must send him, the matter must one way or other appeare, ey∣ther he will séeme euen compelled by force of such as do ad∣iure

him, to confesse that such a woman or such a man sent him, or els the witch must confesse so much. Then the peo∣ple deuise how they may be safe against the witch, there is running to the wisardes to learne what they should doe, to withstand the furie of the witch, that she send not to them, or if she haue sent, how they may expell her spirit, and keép her from sending him againe: this is it which the deuill would haue: for now he vttereth all his wares: he teacheth by these cunning men and women, many horrible abho∣minations, and foule abuses of the name of God, by which they are made beleeue, that they haue remedie against the deuils sent by the witches, and that they are cured from their harmes.

M. B.

I doe not seé how any man can indeéd iustifie, or maintaine, that the spirits which appeare vnto them in the Christall, or in the glasse, or water, or that any way do speake, and shewe matters vnto them, be holy Angels, or the soules of excellent men, as of Moses, Samuel Dauid, and others, though I haue heard that the cunning men, take them to be such, and thinke they deale by them against deuils.

Dan.

It is no matter what Satans vassals are made to beleeue by his subtil sleights: it is most abhominable for any Christian man, euer to let it enter into his thought, that they doe any thing by the power or wisdome of the ho∣lie Ghost, by any Angel or good spirit, or that they doe any thing against the deuill, which worke by the intelligence which they haue from euill spirits: therfore hold this, that they seeke vnto deuils, which run vnto those southsayers.

M. B.

I am perswaded indeed that they seek vnto de∣uils, but I would see some reason for it out of Gods word.

Dan.

Touching all spirituall matters, as to be ar∣med with power against deuils, and to know how to auoid the daungers which they bring, we are no where to seeke, and to learne but of our most blessed Lorde God. And of

him we cannot learn, but by his holy word, for in it he hath opened vnto vs all his whole will. And therefore, where the Lorde commaundeth the people of Israell by Moses, Deut. 18. that they should not when they came into the land, learn to do according to the abhominations of those heathen, reckoning vp sundry kinds of such as were Sa∣tans instruments, which he vsed to seduce the multitude, by deuinations, by obseruing of times, by augurie, by iug∣lings with the helpe of the deuill, by vsing familiar Spi∣rits, spirits of deuination, and seéking to the dead: he set∣teth downe also the remedie, shewing first, that he woulde cast out those nations because they harkened vnto the southsayers, and deuiners, pronouncing that euerie one which doth those things, is an abhomination to the Lorde, willing his people that they should not harken to such, but that they should hearken vnto him: And then Moses saith, A Prophet shall the Lord thy God raise vp vnto thee from among you of thy brethren like vnto me, him shal ye heare.

M. B.

Then you prooue by that place, that we muste seéke only to God, and not to such as work by meanes be∣sides his words.

Dan.

If you read that place, Deut. 18. and mark eue∣ry thinge well, you shall seé it doeth not onely prooue that they seéke vnto Deuilles, which runne to these cunning men and women▪ because the Prophetes which God hath raysed vp to declare the Lords will, commaund vs not to doe such things: but also declareth that they bee an abho∣mination to the Lorde that vse them, or that seéke vnto them.

M. B.

I seé then it is not onelie a sinne, but a moste horrible sinne, to seéke vnto them. Alas, many do not think that they seéke vnto deuilles, when they goe for helpe vnto them for thinges stollen, or for helpe and remedie against witches.

Dan.

No doubt many refuse to hear the voyce of God, to be instructed by him: they despise his word, and therfore they be giuen vp to hearken vnto Deuilles. Such as haue sought vnto any of these that worke by the deuill, and now come to see their offence, ought to shew repentance for the same, not as for a light sinne. It is no small abhomination to goe for helpe vnto the deuill: It is to set him in Gods place, and to honour him as God. It riseth of infidelity and distrust of help from God, as we may see in the exam∣ple of king Saule, who finding no answere nor comforte from God, whome he had so wickedly disobeyed, went to a witch. The heathen man saide, Flectere si nequeo Superos, Acherontamouebo. If I cannot intreat the goddes, I will downe among the deuils.

M. B.

Nay, doubtles there can be no defence made for such seéking help at their hands, which deale with famili∣ar spirits, but I muse at diuers thinges, as this for one, how the cunning men, if they deale by the power of the de∣uill, should vse such good wordes, and will them that come vnto them to doe all in the name of Christ, teaching them to vse words and sentences of the scriptures.

Dan.

O sir, here lieth the deép subtiltie of Satan, how should the people be seduced to follow him, if he should not vse great cunning to couer matters, as if deuils were dri∣uen out, and harmes cured that are done by them, euen through the name and mightie power of God. Herein also lyeth a more foule abhomination, and that is the abusing and horrible prophaning of the most blessed name of God, and the holie Scriptures vnto witcheries, charmes, and coniurations, and vnto all deuillish artes. Such an one is haunted with a fayrie, or a spirit: he must learne a charme compounded of some straunge speaches, and the names of God intermingled, or weare some part of S. Iohns Gos∣pell or such like. So against the thiefe, against the deuill sent by the witch, the like is practized. What can Satan

desire more, than that holie thinges should be thus abused▪ There is adoe to get him into the glasse, to get him into the Chrystall, to get him into the basen of water: there is a doe to binde him, as it were by the name & power of Christ to tell this thing or that thing. The coniurer hee bindeth him with the names of God, and by the vertue of Christes passion and resurrection, & so maketh him serue his turne: And all is his owne worke; for he is not constrayned, nor bound, but séeketh thus to haue God blasphemed. O (sayth the simple man) this is a good woman, shee speaketh of God, and of Christ, and doth all in his name: they be good words which she hath taught me to vse: and what hurt can there be in vsing good wordes? Alas poore man, what case are they in which must learne good words of the deuill? It is not the speaking of good wordes, or the wearing some part of the scriptures, that defendeth from deuils, therein lieth the craft of satan, to haue those holy thinges so foullie abused, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that men may put trust in wordes and senten∣ces pronounced▪ but the deuilles are withstood onlie by the power of faith, where the holie scriptures are written in the heart, & the soule armed with the power of them. From this Satan draweth men by his soothsayers, teaching them other helpes: For the naming of God, or the senten∣ces of scripture binde•••• not satan 〈…〉〈…〉 wee reade he can vtter them.

M. B.

Then howe can the deuill beare such a pitifull minde, as to help those that bee in misery? For many haue helpe by these cunning men. The deuill is cruell and bent wholly to doe hurt, and that is it which perswadeth manie that things are done euen by the power of God.

Dan.

The deuils be as pitifull as a greédy hungrie li∣on that roareth after his pray, and as a fierce Dragon, all burning with wrath and bloody malice: they make shew of doing good vnto men, only of a most cruel and murtherous purpose, euen to draw men deéper into the pit of hell with

them. For if they can help the bodie a litle, it is to win both bodie and soule vnto eternall damnation. Where satan offereth his help, it is more to be feared, than where he ma∣nifestly impugneth, and seeketh apparantly to hurt.

M. B.

But this then is more strange, if they doe not deale by the power of God, but by the power of the deuill, when they driue out deuils from hurting, howe one deuill should driue out another. Our sauiour saith, that satan doth not driue out satan, for then his kingdom should bee deui∣ded and could not stand.

Dan.

It is most certaine that satan doth not driue out satan: for our sauiour hath shewed the reason of the con∣trarie. One deuill is readie to further the worke of ano∣ther: but in no wise to expel or to hinder one another.

M. B.

There is it which maketh me to muse: we seé the deuill driuen out, and doeth not returne againe, and if it be not wrought by the power of deuilles, as you say it cannot, then must it neéds be by the power of God,

Dan.

The Deuill is driuen out, neither by the power of the deuill, nor yet by the power of God, in these that are healed by cunning men.

M. B.

I like this worst of al the speach which I heard you vtter yet: For if satan be not driuen out neither by the power of satan, not by the power of God, what other pow∣er is there to driue him out? If you can shewe a third pow∣er to expell him, it is more than euer I heard of.

Dan.

There neédeth not a thirde power to expell him, for he is not driuen out at all.

M. B.

I told you before, if you denie that to be, which all experience doth shewe, then is it no reasoning. There be examples in many places, and daylie it is seéne, that the deuill is driuen out of some possessed, that where he did vexe and torment men in their bodies, and in their cattle, they haue remedie against him.

Dan.

I doe not denie but that some which are posses∣sed

and tormented by Satan, haue release: but yet the de∣uill is not cast foorth by those means, but ceaseth willingly euen to establish men in errour, and in most wicked pro∣phaning of the name of God, and worshipping of himselfe, and so entreth deéper into them.

M. B.

I beseéch you let me heare how that is, that you say he ceaseth of his owne accord. Will he let goe his hold willingly and of his owne accord, where he hath it vpon a∣ny man? Doth he not desire to doe hurt?

Dan.

He doeth not let goe his hold which he hath vpon any man, but indeéd taketh faster holde when hee seémeth to be cast foorth and doth greater hurt: for tell me whose deuise is the coniuration?

M. B.

I am out of doubt that coniuration is the de∣uice of the deuill.

Dan.

Then tell me, hath the deuill deuised and taught a way to bind himselfe, or to cast forth himselfe?

M. B.

That I suppose he would neuer doe.

Dan.

Indeéd if we wil imagine that the deuil is becom an old foole; we may think he wold teach that which should bind and cast foorth himselfe: but the scripture calleth him the old serpent: he deuised and taught coniuration, there∣fore coniuration doth not cast him foorth. Yet he seémeth to be bound by the cōiurer, yea euen by the name of God, and by the power of the passion of Christ. The coniurer seémeth by the same power to driue him out of a man possessed, whose body he doth vex & torment. And he ceaseth willingly to torment the bodie, to establish coniuration, & so to draw men quite from God, euen to worship and to follow him∣selfe, and seéke all helpes at his hands. Euen so when men are tormented in their bodies, or plagued in their cattell by the deuill, and seéke vnto the cunning men and women, following the way that they prescribe vnto them, and haue ease in their bodies, and no more harme among their cat∣tell, Satan doth not giue place as forced, but ceaseth to do

those bodilie harmes, that he may fullie win vnto himselfe both bodie and soule. If they should not seeme to bee expel∣led, how should men be drawn to seék help at their handes which deale by him? how should witches and coniurers be drawne on most horriblie to pollute and blaspheme the glo∣rious name of God?

M. B.

Then I seé they buy their help deér which haue it at the handes of these cunning men.

Dan.

Yea, what can be bought more deare, than that which is with the losse of soule and bodie for euer, by run∣ning from God after deuils?

M. B.

What shoulde a man thinke then touching all other which deale not with the deuill and yet haue certaine waies to finde out witches, and to vnwitch that which they haue done?

Dan.

Although they deale not directly by the deuill, I meane they haue no familiar spirites that speake vnto them yet they deale by deuillish deuises, which are also an abhomination to the Lord. For all those seuerall sortes of witches which the Lord rehearseth, Deut. 18. did not deale directlie with deuils. For some were obseruers of times, which had their luckie dayes and their vnluckie dayes, and so their howers. If they goe to buy or to sell, they choose their hower to set foorth in. Some dealt by the intralles of ••easts, and by the flying of birds, by meeting with an hare, or a foxe, and on which hand, & a thousand such like. Some deal with the Siue and a paire of sheeres▪ vsing certaine words: Some vse a charme for the tooth ach another for the ague, and for stopping the bleéding at the nose, also their spell for the theéfe, and a thousande such like, when butter will not come, when cheefe will not runne, nor Ale worke in the fatte: These would seeme of all others to haue witches in the greatest detestation, and in the meane time worke by the deuill themselues, and may bee termed wit∣ches.

M. B.

We doe count them witches which haue their spirits, we doe not take them to be witches, which doe but vse those things which the cunning men haue taught. For they doe not mean to doe any thing by the deuill. Me thin∣keth therefore it is hard to call them witches.

Dan.

Take the name of witchcraft for all that dealeth by the power and deuices of the deuill: No doubt some are more horrible than other of the seuerall sortes of witches, yet the lightest of them be abhominations before the Lord, as we are taught, Deut. 18. and the ignorance doeth not excuse. For what though the witch suppose it is the soule of Moses, which appeareth in his Chrystal, is he not ther∣fore a witch? Your neighbour, whose butter wold not come, which heat a spit red hoat and thrust into the creame, vsing certaine wordes, doth thinke she did by the power of God fray away the deuill, is she not therefore a witch, dealing with that which the deuil, and not God hath taught? Is she not a witch also in seéking help at deuils? They which did burne the cloaths which their child lay in, to know by the burning blacke whether it were bewitched, and to bring the witch thither, dealt altogether by the power and dire∣ction of the deuill, & so in scratching, for God hath taught no such things, then are they not witches? By whose in∣struction, and by whose power was the witch fetched home at the burning of the hair of the butchers sonne you spake of? Was not all done by the power of Satan, and by his instruction? Are not they then which practize the thinges the Disciples of witches, & so indeéd very witches? Those which haue their charmes, and their night spels, what can they be but witches? I might reckon vp her that dealeth with the siue and the sheares, and a number of such trum∣peries, in all which the most holie name of God is pollu∣ted, and if any thing be done, it is done wholly by the effe∣ctuall working of Satan. God hath giuen naturall helps, and those we may vse, as from his hand against naturall

diseases, but things besides nature he hath not appointed, especiallie, they be ridiculous to driue away deuilles and diseases.

M. B.

Now you speak of naturall things, we seé there be great secretes in nature: the Adamant draweth Iron vnto it. And why may there not be some force in these na∣turall things then?

Dan.

No doubt there be great secrets in nature, which the skilfull Physitians, and naturall Philosophers do find out. As the hanging of some thinge about the necke, may haue force to driue away an ague, the wearing of some thing may haue such vertue to deliuer from the cramp, and such like. And from these Satan doeth take occasion to bring in his trumperies, and curious deuises. As because there be secretes in nature, a ring is curiouslie framed ac∣cording to the signes in the firmament, this is tied to a thread, and let downe into a basen or cup of water, and wil shew great things. Because there be secretes in nature, a horshoo must be heat red hot, and then put into a kettle seé∣thing vpon the fire to driue away the witches spirite. Also he that hath his cattle bewitched, burneth some liue thing, as hogge or henne, to driue out the deuill. Can these natu∣rall thinges expell deuils? Nay, they play the rancke wit∣ches, which burne any thing for to expell deuils: for, hath God taught to doe anie such thing? Doe they burne the thing to God, or is it as a verie burnt sacrifice to the De∣uill? In the time of the law burnt sacrifices were offred to God: the deuill among the heathen drewe the like to him∣self. And now by his sleight he doth after some sort procure the same at their hands, which professe to be Christians, and thus worshipp•••••• him, he ceaseth from hurting their bodies, or their cattell, as gaining a greater matter.

M. B.

If it be so (as I am not able to gainsay it) then be there multitudes in all places which are guiltie of sorce∣••ie and witchcraft. For I seé many deale in matters by

the help and power of the deuill, which are perswaded o∣therwise. But I meruaile much at diuers things touching the help which men haue by deuils. Let vs conferre a little about them. The deuill doeth know things past, & things present, but God onelie doth know what shall bee done in the time to come. If these cunning men doe deale with no further power, than the power of the deuill, howe can they tell so right what shall come to passe?

Dan.

It is peculiar to God alone, to know what shall come to passe hereafter. But the Lord God hath reuealed by his Prophetes, and Apostles many thinges that after should be fulfilled. Satan can giue a nere coniecture when these come to be fulfilled. Hee is a most subtill obseruer of thinges, and will gesse at many: but especially, where hee hath power giuen him to worke and to bring any matter about, he can and will tell it aforehand. Finally, God in his iust iudgement giueth him power to seduce the wicked.

M. B.

I pray you open your meaning more fully.

Dan.

Uery well: In which haue you any doubt?

M. B.

I take it the Deuill gesseth at things which are prophecied, and is a sharpe obseruer of causes. But you said he telleth what shall be, where he worketh that which he foretelleth: giue some example for this.

Dan.

There neédeth no better example, than that which you tolde of the Churchwardens that went to the cunning man, to knowe the theefe which had stollen their communion cuppe. It may be sayd, where the cunning man bad them go to such a place, such a night, and at such an hower, and thither shall come he that stole the cup, how could the deuill tell, if it were a night or two after, that he should come to that place, and at that hower? You muste note what power the deuill hath in the mind of a theefe. He stirred him vp to steale the cup. He stirred vp the Church∣wardens to seeke to the cunning witch. Hee nameth the place and the time, whether, and when he would moue the

heart of the theéfe to come: And at the time appointed heé bringeth him thither, for he that could moue him to steale, could also by secrete suggestion mooue him to goe thither. The deuill told that the witch shuld come home with speéd that had bewitched the butchers son. He that had power in her heart to make her become a witch, did know he should haue power to make her with haste to come home. One ca∣rieth somewhat which a sick person hath lien in to the cun∣ning man. He can tell, it seémeth, by the smell of the cloth, whether the deuil hath bene in it (if it smell like his deuill) and so telleth, the partie is bewitched. Take the clothes which the sicke partie hath lien in, and burne them, if they burne blacke, then may you seé it is so, and the witch shall come in while they be a burning. Nowe, if the Lord gaue him power, and he hath striken and tormented the bodie of the sicke person▪ and if hee haue collourably stirred vp a witch to send him: Is it not an easie matter for him to make the fire burne blacke, and to mooue the witch to come at that present? Or if he haue power for to torment, and hath no witch to sende him, his great desire being to haue men guiltie of innocent blood, is it not as easie by the permission of God which in his iust iudgment giueth him power to seduce such people as will hearken vnto deuils. for him to make the fire burne blacke, or at least to seéme so to them, and to mooue some frowarde suspected woman or other to come in, though she be no witch? A thousande such things hee worketh in, and as a cunning iuggler can compasse and bring them about.

M. B.

Indeéd an innocent person may come in at such a time: but I haue heard, I cannot tell howe true it is, that therefore there is a further thing which they obserue. And that is this, the cunning man biddeth, set on a posnet or some pan with nayles, and seéth them, and the witch shal some in while they be in seéthing, and within a fewe dayes after, her face will be all bescratched with the nailes. And

I haue heard that some olde woman comming in, her face hath indeed bene as it were scratched within a few dayes after, for the shingles or such like brake forth.

Dan.

O the depth of Satans illusions to make blinde people becom witches, and to deale by him. He doth know the corrupted humours in the bodie, which will breake out into the smal pockes, or such like, and if he can procure one to come in which is euen ready to haue them, what a shew doth he make, as if the uails did it?

M. B.

This were great subtiltie of Satan.

Dan.

Nay, we are not able to imagine the depth of his sleights, neither can we seé the secrete force, wherwith he moueth the minds of ignorant people, and so bringeth about his enterprises. There doth lie the greatest cunning of Satan.

M. B.

Indeéd it seémeth strange and vncredible that the deuil should so moue the minds of men, and lead them vnto this thing and that thing, and in the meane time they doe not know it, but thinke they goe against the deuil. But now I haue a further doubt. I confesse it is an easie thing for the deuill to tell where a thing is that is lost or stollen, but what power hath he to heale that which is sick or sore? Out of question they be innumerable which receiue helpe by going to the cunning men. You say he helpeth the bodie that he may destroy the soule. Hee helpeth that men may seéke vnto him, and so set him, as it were, in the place of God. Me thinketh it should not be in the power of deuilles for to helpe.

Dan.

Indeed that is well mooued, there lieth a great sleight of the deuill in it. You say that innumerable do re∣ceiue help by going vnto cunning men. I warrant you not so many as you are perswaded.

M. B.

O verie manie. There be a number which doe neuer make it knowne, because it is misliked by some.

Dan.

Yea, and there be many which come home again

with a flea in their eare, they receiue an answere, as good as a flim flam.

M. B.

It may be they come too late, the matter is ouer farre spent, and if they had come sooner, they coulde haue holpen them.

Dan.

Yea, a number of such cosoning answers the de∣uill maketh which satisfie ignorant people, which are rea∣to beleéue all that he telleth, and to daunce after his pipe. One commeth to him for his childe, if he know the disease be deadly, he will say it is bewitched, but so farre spent, that there is no help, the childe wil hardlie liue two daies▪ the father commeth home and findeth his child deade, or it dieth within two or threé dayes after, here the deuill get∣teth credit. Another is sicke and grieuously tormented, heé sendeth: Satan doth seé (for he sendeth them) that the dis∣ease is euen spent, and that the cause of it begin to fail, and so that the partie in a few dayes will recouer, here he pre∣scribeth one paltrie or other, they vse it, the man is recoue∣red, and so should haue bene without the deuils medicine, but now Satan hath gotten further credite. Another is sicke and languisheth, his neighbours tell him, he may be bewitched, it is good to send, and then he shal know. He sen∣deth, the deuill doth not know whether the sicke man can escape and recouer, or not. He saith, it is like he is bewit∣ched: and teacheth what to doe, if there bee any help at all, but doubteth, and so whether the man liue or die, Satan saueth his credite whole and sound. And many of these an∣sweres he giueth. Againe, we must note that mans imagi∣nation is of great force, either to continue a disease, or to diminish and take away some diseases. And in this also Satan deludeth some, for his medicine seémeth to do som∣what, when it is but the parties conceit.

M. B.

These be sleightes indeéde: but mee thinketh you goe farre in the last. I doe not seé how a mans conceit can help him.

Dan.

Imagination is a strong thing to hurt, all men doe finde, and why should it not then be strong also to help, when the parties mind is cheared, by beleéuing fully that he receiueth ease?

M. B.

But yet it is hard to shewe that euer anie such cure hath bene wrought.

Dan.

It is not hard to shew, for that which men doe, it is presumed the deuill can doe the like. And I haue heard of a mery companion that wrought such a cure. Ther was one in London (as report goeth) which was acquainted with Feats, Now, this Feats had a blacke dogge, whome he called Bomelius. This partie afterward had a conceit that Bomelius was a deuill, and that hee felt him within him. He was in heauinesse, and made his moane to one of his acquaintance, who had a merie head, he tolde him, heé had a friend could remooue Bomelius. Hee had him pre∣pare a breakfast, and he would bring him. Then this was the cure, he made him be stripped naked and stand by a good fire, and though he were fatte ynough of himselfe, basted him all ouer with butter against the fire, and made him weare a sleéke stone next his skin vnder his bellie, and the man had present remedie, and gaue him afterward greate thankes.

M. B.

I know men haue many foolish imaginations: but though one imagination may driue out another, which is not the curing of any disease in deéd, but of an imagina∣tion: yet it doth not followe, that where there is an appa∣rant griefe, that a mans conceit can helpe to cure it.

Dan.

Yes, the conceit doth much, euen where there is an apparant disease. A man feareth hee is bewitched, it troubleth al the powers of his mind, and that distempereth his bodie, maketh great alterations in it, and bringeth sundrie griefes. Now, when his minde is freéd from such i∣maginations, his bodily griefe which grew from the same is eased. And a multitude of Satans cures are but such.

M. B.

Nay, there be also euils which be apparant in the bodie, and bee cured, which come not of anie feare or imagination: how can these be cured by any conceit? There is great reason that such griefes may be cured indeede by quieting the minde, as did growe from the disturbance of the same.

Dan.

Yea, and that falleth out sometimes in griefes of the body, which doeth not growe from imagination, but from some other passions. As I can giue you an example, which is written and reported by a very reuerend learned Physitian. The cure was done by a lewde cosening knaue in Germanie. A woman had bleare eies that were watery. The knaue lodging there, promised for certainty that hee would heale them: hee did hang a litle writing about her necke, charging strictlie, that it should not be taken from thence nor read, nor opened, for if any of these were done, she could haue no help at all by it. The woman had such a confidence in thethinge, and was so merry and glad, that she left weéping (for her often weéping and teares had spoi∣led her eies) and so by little and litle, the moysture stay∣ed, and her eies were whole. It fell out that she lost the writing, whereat she was in such griefe and sorrowe, and weeping, that her eies were sore againe. Another founde the writing, opened it, and read it. It was written in the Germane tongue, to this effect translated into English: The deuill pluck out thine eies, and fill their holes with his dung. Was not this, thinke you, a proper salue for to cure her eies? If this medicine had taken effect, her eies shuld not haue ben healed, but plucked quite out. We may not think but that Satan hath mo cousening tricks than al men in the world, for men are but his schollers. Againe, where men faile, he can worke somewhat in the affections of the parties mindes. And you shall heare them say, when any charme is vsed, you must beleeue it will helpe, or els it will doe you no good at all. Thus if it were well seene into,

the greatest part of your innumerable cures, come to bee mere cosonages.

M. B.

Well, let all this be true as you haue saide: Yet there be many thinges wherein the deuilles doe helpe. What say you to the boy which healed within few daies as he had scratched the witch, whereas his sores were most grieuous before, and could not be cured? What say you to that which they doe, when butter will not come, or when drinke will not worke in the fat? What say you to the bur∣ning of some liue thing, as hogge or henne, and the harme ceassing? And finallie, what say you to the helping of them where the deuill 〈…〉〈…〉 doth torment their bodies▪

Dan.

All these are answered in few wordes, that where he hath power to hurt either man or beast, drinke or butter he helpeth only by giuing place, and ceasing to hurt, which as I shewed you before, he doth most willinglie, to bring to passe, that men may seék to him, & become euen verie wit∣ches. If a man be vexed & tormented by a deuil, & men seek by fasting & prayer to cast him foorth, euen instantly intrea∣ting the Lord▪ thē he goeth out with much a do, and vnwil∣lingly, as ouercome & expelled by the power of God. But when he hurteth, as you say he did the butchers sonne, and they seéke to him, and will followe his presciptions, as to draw blood of the witch, he goeth out willingly, I meane he ceaseth from hurting the bodie: for he goeth not out in∣deéde, but rather goeth further in, and seateth himselfe deé∣per in the soule. And so is it in all the rest. How gladlie wil he cease to hurte the hennes, so that to please him, a henne may be burnt aliue? his helping is no more but a ceasing from doing harme, if he had power giuen him to hurt.

Sam.

This is a strange thing if it be so. There be thou∣sands in the land deceiued. The woman at R. H. by report hath some weeke fourtie come vnto her, and many of them not of the meaner sort. But I doe but hinder, I pray you go forward.

Dan.

The deuill can deceiue thousand thousands, and euen the wisest for this world, when they will not be taught of God, but dispise his doctrine, then are they iustly gi∣uen ouer to be disciples of the deuill.

M. B.

If there be such deceit in all these things, and that the witches do not kill nor hurt, but the deuill crafti∣lie séemeth to kill and to hurt when the diseases be naturall and maketh the witch beleeue that hee hath done all at her request, Or where God hath giuen him power, he stirreth her vp to send him, as if either hee could not, or would not meddle, vnles he had bene sent, Seeing all lieth vpon Sa∣tan, it should seeme, there is no reason that witches should be put to death: but the scripture doth command they shuld be put to death.

Dan.

The holy scriptures doe command that witches should be put to death: therein you say right: but if you did take it, that the word of God commaundeth they shall not be suffered to liue, because they kill men and beastes, or because they send their spirits which possesse men, and tor∣ment their bodies, you are much deceiued: For you shal ne∣uer finde, of all that haue bene tormented and plagued by euill spirites, that the holie Ghoste layeth it vpon witches. The causes why they should be put to death are, that they haue familiaritie with deuils, which are the blasphemous enemies of God: and that they seduce the people into er∣rour, to runne after deuils, and deuilish practises, and that they haue such wicked minds. Although they neuer minde to kill or to hurt any, but to doe them good, as they ima∣gine, yet if they deale with deuilles they ought to die for it.

M. B.

Then you take it, that these cunning men and women, vnto whome so many runne for helpe, which are thought to do very much good, and no hurt at all, ought to be rooted out, and destroyed. Let vs knowe what scripture there is for it.

Dan.

Yea, of all other they ought to die, because they doe the greatest harme. Other witches that haue spirites are thought to doe harm, because the deuil at the appoint∣ment of God doth harme, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 he beareth in hand hee doeth it at the request of the witch: but these that seéme to doe good, do harme indeéd, and that many wayes, as euerie one that light in him, may easily seé. And for the scripture••s which shewe that they ought to die, reade first in the 22. chapter of Exodus. ver. 18▪ and there it is said, Thou shalt not suffer a witch to liue.

M. B.

That place we take to be meant of these witches which send their spirits to doe harme: the other be not cal∣led witches.

Dan.

It is that witch, that is there commanded to beé put to death, that is called Mecasshephah: such were they and so called, which before Pharaoh did withstand Moses, and made in shewe rods turned into serpents. So that in one kinde the Lord doeth include all such as worke by the deuill. For there be diuers others sortes named in Deut. 18. and they bee all called an abhomination to the Lorde: and no abhomination is to be suffered to remaine among the Lords people. Also in the same place, when he saith, Let there not be found in theé any such or such, as he there reckoneth them vp: It is not alone to will that none should practize such thinges, but also that they should bee rooted out.

M. B.

I must neéds agreé vnto that which the worde of God doth set down. But this is the hardest matter of al, how they shall be conuicted.

Dan.

Why doe you take it to bee the hardest matter, how a witch shall be conuicted? how is a theéf or a murthe∣rer conuicted but by proofe? If there be vehement suspiti∣on, and the party vpon examination confesse the fact, that is a sufficient proofe. If the partie doe denie, and two or threé of credite doe testifie vpon their knowledge with a so∣lemne

oath, that he is guiltie of the fact, that is also a suf∣ficient proofe. And touching this, God commanded by Mo∣ses, that none should dy, vnlesse the matter were prooued against them by two witnesses at the least. Deutronom. 19. ver. 15.

M. B.

I graunt, if the partie do denie, and especially, if the matter touch life, that there ought by the worde of God to be due proofe by two witnesses at the least. This may be for murtherers, this may be for theéues: but for witches I seé not how. They deale so secretely with their spirits, that very seldome they can be conuinced by flat te∣stimonies of men, as to say directly they haue heard or seén them send their spirits. And againe, it is a rare thinge to haue a witch confesse. For it is generallie thought the de∣uill hath such power ouer them, that he wil not suffer them to confesse.

Dan.

O then I perceiue why you account it the hardest matter of all to conuict a witch, it both testimony and con∣fession doe fayle: but what would you haue further?

M. B.

I haue bene of this opinion, that if there were any likelihood, and suspition, and common fame, that it was euen proofe ynough, and the best deéde that could he done for to hang them vp, and so to ridde the countrey of them.

Dan.

Then you thought that their spirites were han∣ged with them, and so the country being rid of the witches and their spirits, mens bodies and their cattell should bee safe.

M. B.

I had a little more wit than to thinke so: but in trueth it was but a litle more. For I thought if all the wit∣ches were hanged, that then their spirits shoulde not haue anie to hire them nor to send them to hurte eyther man or beaste, but I seé mine owne follie, and that onlie God gi∣ueth the power vnto the deuils to afflict and trie the godly, and to vexe, torment, and plague the wicked, and that they

shall do this, though all the witches in the world were han∣ged. I know they neéde none to cherish them, or to set them a worke.

Dan.

But did you not feare if all suspected should be hanged, then some guiltles persons might be put to death? As you seé manie that haue bene executed as witches haue taken it vpon their death that they were innocent.

M. B.

I will tel you my thought touching that point, which was this. The witches raise tempestes, and hurte corne and fruites vpon the treés, the witches bring the pe∣stilence among men, and murraine among cattell: the wit∣ches send their spirits and make men lame, kill their chil∣dren and their cattell: their spirits cannot bee taken heede of, nor kept out with doores and wals as theéues and mur∣therers, but come in when they bee sent, and doe so many harmes: for this cause I thought it a marueilous good worke to put all suspected to death, though some of them were innocent, that so sure worke might be made to haue not one left.

Dan.

Did you not thinke it a fearfull thinge to shead innocent blood.

M. B.

Yea, but I thought it much better that some should be put to death wrongfully, than to leaue any one witch, which might kill and destroy many.

Dan.

Then I perceiue that this was the reason which did perswade you, that it was very good to put all to death that were suspected (although it might fall out that some of them were innocent) to auoyde greater inconuenience, and that is, if some few witches should escape, which might plague and kill many. Better a few should be put wrong∣fully to death, then many should bee tormented and killed, or lamed by the deuilles. But are you still of that mind?

M. B.

No verily. For you haue put me in minde that the wicked spirits receiue their power to plague both mē and beasts, only from God. They seéke about, they watch

when and where hee will giue them leaue to touch, where God will trie the faith and patience of the iust by him, as he did in Iob, he sendeth him, if he will be sent by a witch, it is but vnder a collour, shee giueth him not the power, hee would touch though she were not. Where God will strike and plague the wicked by him, he giueth him leaue, it is not the anger of the witch that bringeth it, but their owne wickednes, whereby they haue prouoked God to displea∣sure, and so giue this enemy power ouer them.

Dan.

Then so long as these two thinges stand, that God by Satan will afflict in some sort and trie his chil∣dren (as you alleage he did Iob) and that he will vse him as his executioner, to plague and torment the wicked, as he sent an euill spirite to vexe king Saule: so long the harmes done by wicked spirites shall not cease, although all the witches and coniurers in the worlde were han∣ged vp. Looke then to the causes, if wee will remooue the effects. As if thou feare God, and Satan afflict thee, stand fast in faith and patience, and waite vpon God for thy deli∣uerance. If thou endure temptation, thou art blessed, and shalt be crowned. Iam. 1. ver. 12. If thy sinnes haue prouo∣ked God, and the enemie doth touch thy body or thy goods, fall downe and humble thy selfe with fasting and prayer, intreat the Lord to turne away his displeasure: looke not vpon the witch, lay not the cause where it is not, seéke not help at the hands of deuils, be not a disciple of witches, to commit thinges abhominable, by polluting the name of God, and honouring Satan, nor thirst not after the blood which is innocent, as it falleth out in many.

M. B.

I doe assent vnto al this: and surely it is a great fault to shead innocent blood.

Dan.

We may learne in the holie scriptures, that the sheading of innocent blood is a verie horrible thing in the eies of almightie God: and a very grieuous thing it is to haue a land polluted with innocent blood: and that is one

special cause why Satan dealeth by witches: for he labou∣reth to wrappe in many guiltlesse persons vpon suspiti∣ons, he suggesteth by his helping witches, that ther be ma∣ny hurting witches in all townes, and villages, that so hee may set the multitude in a rage, 〈…〉〈…〉 to suspect vpon euery likelihood that he can deuise or make shewe of▪ And thus whole Iuries must become guiltie of innocent hlood, by condemning as guiltie, and that vpon their solemne oath, such as be suspected vpon vaine surmises and imaginati∣ons, and illusions, rising from blindnes and infidelitie, and feare of Satan which is in the ignorant sort.

M. B.

If you take it, that this is one craft of Satan, to bring manie to be guiltie of innocent blood, and euen vp∣on their oathes, which is horrible, what wold you haue the iudges and Iuries to doe, when any are arraigned of sus∣pition to be witches?

Dan.

What would I haue them doe? I would wish them to bee most warie and circumspect that they bee not guilty of innocent blood. And that is, to condemne none but vpon sure ground, and infallible proofe, because pre∣sumptions shall not warrant or excuse them before God if guiltlesse blood be shead.

M. B.

It falleth out sometimes when a theefe is ar∣raigned, or a murtherer, that direct euidence faileth, and yet such circumstances are brought, as doe euen enforce the Iurie in their conscience to find them guiltie: It see∣meth that this holdeth chiefly about witches, because their dealing is close and secrete, and it is also thought that the deuill hath so great power ouer them, that he will not suf∣fer them to confesse.

Dan.

You bring two reasons to prooue that in conuic∣ting witches, likelihoods and presumptions ought to be of force more than about theéues or murtherers: The first, because their dealing is secrete: the other because the deuil will not let them confesse. Indeéde men imagining that

witches do worke strange mischiefes, burne in desire to haue them hanged, as hoping the•• to be freé, and then vpon such perswasions as you mention, they suppose it is a very good worke to put to death all which are suspected. But touching theeues and murtherers let men take heéde how they deale vpon presumptions, vnles they be very strong for we seé that Iuries sometimes doe condemne such as be guiltlesse, which is an hard thing, especiallie being vpon their oath. And in witches aboue all other, the proofes had neéd to be strong because there is greater sleight of Satan to pursue the guiltles vnto death, than in the other. Here is speciall care and wisdome to be vsed. And so likewise for their confessing, Satan doth gaine more by their confessi∣on, than by their deniall, and therefore rather bewrayeth them himselfe, and forceth them to confession, oftener than vnto deniall.

M. B.

These things are beyond my reach, I cannot conceiue of them. I pray you open it so as that I may per∣ceiue your meaning, and seé some ground of reason for that which you shall affirme.

Dan.

Then is it requisite to stande vpon them more at large. And let vs begin with the latter.

M. B.

If you go first to the latter, then shew some rea∣son or experience that Satan bewrayeth the witches, and draweth them to confesse, and to disclose themselues, rather than to conceale and hide their doings. I can tell you this before hand, that the common opinion is otherwise, which seémeth to be grounded both vpon reason and experience.

Dan.

I know the common opinion is as you say: But I do much marueill at it, seéing reason and experience doe prooue the contrary as I will shew. As first, touching rea∣son, you will grant, that the deuils dealing altogether by sleight and subtilties, doe that which doeth most further their purposes and desires.

M. B.

That is the verie reason why the deuill would

by no meanes haue the witches bewrayed, as it is thought because he would lurke secretely to doe mischiefe.

Dan.

Indeed it were a good reason to proue that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 if Satan receiued his power from the witch, or could doe nothing but by her sending, or neéded to be harboured by her, or had no minde to meddle, but as it were hired to sa∣tisfie her wrath. But seeing al these be absurd, and he vseth the witch and coniurer but vnder a colour to bring in fur∣ther euils, it must needs followe, that the disclosing is fit∣ter for his purpose, than the keeping secrete, for if they should be kept secrete, how should he make men think that he doth so many harmes at the request of the witch? howe should he drawe so many to runne after deuils, to seek help at their handes? how should he procure so many to vse wic∣ked and blasphemous charms and sorceries, and in so hor∣rible maner to abuse the blessed name of God, and his most sacred word? Or how should he draw the people into ma∣nifold errours, and to thirst euen in rage after innocent blood? All these and a number such like hee procureth and furthereth, by disclosing witches.

M. B.

But how shall this reason be confirmed by ex∣perience: No doubt in shew he is loath to haue his Dame (as some speake) disclosed.

Dan.

You say well, that in shew he is loath to haue the witch bewrayed: for indeéde it is onely in shewe, seéing hee would make her and others also beleéue, euen when he doth bewray her by one means or other, that it is sore against his liking.

M. B.

I pray you make that euident.

Dan.

When one feéleth himselfe plagued any way, and doeth take it to be by Satan, admit it be so: he goeth to a cunning man, and he sheweth him in a glasse, or in a Chry∣stall the shape of the witch. Who now bewrayeth her?

M. B.

That is the cunning mans spirite which be∣wrayeth her, and not her spirit which she dealeth withall.

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Dan.

You are not sure of that: for it may be the same deuill that she dealeth withall, that resembleth her in the glasse: none can doe it better.

M. B.

I doe not thinke that he departeth away from her.

Dan.

Yea, but you must remember that she which dea∣leth with a spirit, dealeth not with a deuill, but with deuils: for manie doe ioyn together. When one of them departeth and carieth the matter to the cunning man, they do not all depart. But what if it be as you said, that som other spirits do bewray, doe you thinke he doeth it against the liking of the witches spirite? Is Satan deuided against Satan? Will Satan bewray Satan to his hindrance? Remember what our Sauiour hath taught touching that.

M. B.

Then if it be so, doe you not take it a sufficient proofe against a witch, euen for a Iurie to finde guilty vp∣on their oath, if a cunning man by his spirite doe bewray anie.

Dan.

It is the most insufficient proofe that can bee, for although he doe tell true in bewraying many, as their own cōfessions do witnes: yet he doeth it of an euill purpose, he is a lyer, and the father of lies, he desireth chiefly to accuse the innocent, that he may bring men to bee guilty of inno∣cent blood, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 make the people beleeue there be multitudes of witches, to set them a work to learne charmes and sor∣ceries, and chiefly, that they may be brought to seeke vnto him, as the bewrayer euen in pitie, of such bad people. Now, because he craftily bewrayeth some, to get credite, shall mens verdict by oath, euen vnto blood, be grounded vpon his testimony? If a deuill should come in vnto a Iu∣rie and say the partie about whome you enquire is a witch, should they beleéue him, or wold they say let him be sworn, and witnesse vpon his oath? If not, why should they beleéue that which he hath spoken to the cunning man?

M. B.

Surely I am out of doubt he doth all in craft

vnto a most bad purpose, and that no credite ought to bee giuen vnto his testimony when it is voluntary. But what say you to his testimonie, when he is euen charged and for∣ced in the name and power of God to tell the trueth? It seé∣meth then he would conceale, but cannot.

Dan.

The coniurer which supposeth that hee doeth bind by the name and power of God to tell him the trueth, is vtterlie deluded. For he is not bound, but is glad that the most glorious name of God is so horriblie abused, and that hee can drawe men into such a gulfe of all abhomina∣tion.

M. B.

Nay, I doe not meane the coniurer, but when such as be godlie go about to cast him foorth by prayer.

Dan.

This I take to bee your meaning: a man or a woman is possessed with a Deuill, put case it bee so indeéde (to distinguish them from so many counterfaits, as haue bene) and men assemble together where the possessiō is, and cal•• vpon God, and then charge Satan in the name of Christ to tell how hee came there, and who sent him.

M. B.

I meane so indeéde. And some being possessed, the deuill being charged to tell who sent him, he hath con∣fessed, that such a man did coniure him in thither, or such a witch did send him. Shall not this be of force to conuince?

Dan.

When any is possessed by the fiend, mens com∣passion, their loue and pity are to be shewed, euen to helpe what they can in such a distresse. They ought with all in∣stant suit to intreat the Lord to shew mercy, and to expell him. The doctrin of the holy scriptures doth warrant this: but for men to talke and question with him, I seé no war∣rant at all by Gods word, much lesse to commaund and adiure him to depart. He is the Lords executioner, he hath sent him, wee may intreat the Lord to remooue him, but what authority haue we to command him to depart, where God hath sent him?

M. B.

Men haue no authority, I grant, but they com∣mand

and adiure him in the name and power of the Lord, for to depart.

Dan.

That I take ought not to be, for mark this com∣parison: the Prince is displeased with a subiect for some disloyaltie: An Officer is sent from the Prince to attach and imprison him: shall he or any other charge this Offi∣cer in the Princes name to let him alone, and not to med∣dle? Is not their way only to pacifie the Prince, and so the Prince will command the Officer to cease? Euen so, wher God sendeth Satan his executioner, the only way is to in∣treat the Lord to be pacified, for then shall the tormentor no longer remaine.

M. B.

Howe doeth this which you speake agreé with that which we read in the Acts of the Apostles, howe S. Paule commaunded the deuill to come out of a Mayde at Philippos?

Dan.

The holy Apostles and others in the Primitiue Church, had an extraordinary power giuen them to caste foorth deuils, and to heale diseases, and they did execute the same power by the direction and instinct of the holy Ghost. We may not draw a patterne from that.

M. B.

We seé that deuils are sometimes expelled.

Dan.

They are when the Lord is intreated, otherwise they but seéme to be bound by adiuration and expelled. But how can it be prooued, that the father of lies may be bound, and forced through charge and adiuration in the name and power of God to tell the trueth? And what warrant haue we to learne any trueth from his mouth? As to say we command theé in the name of God, that thou tel vs who sent theé. Who sent theé? who sent theé? Mother Ioan, Mo∣ther Ioan, saith he. Also we command theé to tell vs, who sent theé. L. B. coniured me in hither (saith he) Shal wee thinke he doeth this euen compelled? Or shall we ground vpon it for certaintie, that he telleth no lie?

M. B.

The deuill in a partie possessed hath said, such a

man coniured me in hither. The coniurer hath bene put to death for it, and hath confessed so much. The deuill in an other hath said, such a woman sent me; it hath likewise bene confessed by the woman.

Dan.

All this maketh for that which I affirme. The Lord giueth him power to possesse a man. He vnder a col∣lour will be sent by a coniurer, or by a witch: and the one thinketh the deuill entreth at her intreaty: the other suppo∣seth he doeth euen bind him thereto, whereas he ruleth both their mindes, and setteth them a worke. Then doeth hee willingly bewray them, euen for many subtill purposes: but chiefly, that he may establish coniurations, witchcrafts and charmes, that he may be sought vnto, that he may set the people a worke in their calamities to be troubled about witches and coniurers, as though they could plague, and neuer looke to God, and that bewraying some witches and coniurers, he may winne credite, and be beleeued, euen when he accuseth falslie, that he may bring innocent blood vpon the land. Let all men take heéd how vpon their oath they giue a verdict, especially touching life, vpon his word howsoeuer he seéme to be forced thereunto: all is most deépe craft and subtilty in him.

Sam.

I pray you giue me leaue to speake a litle. You say the deuill willinglie bewrayeth witches and coniurers and that for many subtill purposes. I haue heard of diuers things done of late which seéme quite contrarie, and that he taketh it grieuously when they doe confesse and bewray matters.

Dan.

He will seéme to take it in euill part, but let vs heare the matters, and you shall seé plainely that hee iug∣gleth, and maketh shewe of that which is contrary to his practise.

Sam.

Well, I haue heard very credibly, that a woman of late, suspected another woman to be a witch, & that she had hurt her some way. She procured a gentleman to send

for the partie suspected, and charging her in his presence, she left her to the Gentleman, who taking her aside, and walking alone with her, began to admonish and perswade her to renounce the deuill & to forsake such wicked waies: While he was thus perswading, and she denying stiffely that she was any such woman, suddainly there appeared some distance from them, a Weasill or Lobsterre looking euen vpon them. Looke (said the Gentleman) yonder same is thy spirit. Ah maister (said she) that is a vermine, there be many of them euery where. Well, as they went towards it, it was vanished out of sight: by and by it appeared a∣gaine, and looked vpon them. Surely (saide the Gentle∣man) it is thy spirit: but she still denyed, and with that her mouth was drawne awrie. Then hee pressed her further, and she confessed all. She confessed shee had hurt and kil∣led by sending her spirit. The Gentleman being no Iu∣stice, let her goe home, and did minde to open the matter vnto some Iustice: When she was come home, another witch meeteth her, and saith, Ah thou beast, what hast thou done? thou hast bewrayed vs all. What remedy nowe (saide she?) What remedy said the other? send thy spirite & touch him: she sent her spirit, and of a suddain the Gentleman had as it wer a flash of fire about him. He lifted vp his hart to God, and felt no hurt. The spirite returneth, and tolde he could not hurt him because he had faith: what then, said the other witch, hath hee nothing that thou maist touch? he hath a child said the other. Send thy spirit, sayd she, and touch the child: she sent her spirite, the childe was in great paine and died. The witches were hanged and confessed.

Dan.

What is the chiefe thing which you alleadge this for?

Sam.

To shew how vnwilling the deuill was that the witch should confesse and bewray things. No doubt it shuld seéme, that when the Gentleman was talking with her, hee appeared to call her away, for fear least she should confesse:

and when she would not come away, he drew her mouth a∣wry: and when she had confessed, the deuill complayned vn∣to the other witch, and made her chide her.

Dan.

The thing is as clear as may be, that he willing∣lie bewrayed them: and will you imagine the contrarie? Why did he appeare in a likenesse, but euen to enforce her for to confesse, both by abashing, and giuing the Gentle∣man euident notice, especially, when he drew her mouth a∣wrie? And why did he set on the other witch to mooue her that had confessed to send her spirit, but that he would haue the matter more open, and bring them both to light.

Sam.

What should mooue him to bewray the witches? what could he gaine by it?

Dan.

Nay, what almost doth he not gaine by it? Now all the country ringes of the matter. As if the witches set on their spirites to lame and to kill: and that they doe not meddle, but sent by them. He did knowe what power he had from God to afflict any: he will deale by witches: he ma∣keth others affraid of them, that so they may accuse them. He findeth meanes to haue all disclosed. Hee mooueth the witches to send him against the gentleman: hee knoweth what he can doe: he returneth and saith there is faith: As though God did not giue him power sometimes to afflict the faithfull? Or as if he could touch al that haue no faith? If he could, the greatest part of the world shuld be destroi∣ed by him. For they be very few in the world in comparison which haue the true faith. Then must he be sent to the child that hath no faith: doeth not the faith of the parents holde Gods protection ouer their infants as ouer themselues? Here is Satans craft: either he did know by thinges breé∣ding in the bodie of the child that it would at such time fall sicke and die: and he would be taken to bee the killer of the childe, to beare in hand that he hath such power & wil doe when he is requested. Or els he had power giuen him of God, and wold bring it about this way. If he did strike the

childe, do you imagine he doeth it at her pleasure? Or doe you thinke he would neuer haue thought of any such thing, but moued by her? Doe not all the armies of deuils goe a∣bout continuallie, seéking whom they may deuour? Do they not waite where God wil giue them power to strike? Shall we still be so simple as to thinke that women neede to hire or to intreat them to doe harme? Looke vnto God, for those wicked spirits play all parts in the play, and delude both the witches and others.

Sam.

I will tell you another thing which was done of late. A woman being suspected to be a witch, and to haue done some hurt among cattell, was examined, and confes∣sed indeéd, that she had a spirite which did abide in a hollow treé, where there was an hole, out of which hee spake vnto her. And euer when she was offended with anie, shee went to that treé, and sent him to kill their cattell. She was per∣swaded to confesse her fault openly, and to promise that she wold vtterly forsak such vngodly waies: after she had made this open confession, the spirite came vnto her being alone. Ah, said he, thou hast confessed and bewrayed all, I coulde teéme it to rend theé in peéces: with that she was affrayde, and wound away, and got her into company. Within some few weeks after, she fel out greatly into anger against one man. Towards the treé she goeth, and before she came at it, Ah, said the spirite, wherefore commest thou? who hath an∣gred theé? Such a man, said the witch. And what wouldest thou haue me doe saide the spirite? He hath (saith she) two horses going yonder, touch them or one of them. Well, I thinke euen that night one of the horses died, and the other was litle better. Indeéde they recouered that one againe which was not dead, but in verie euill case. Here mee thin∣keth it is plaine: he was angry that she had bewrayed all. And yet when she came to the treé he let goe all displeasure and went readily.

Dan.

Doe you thinke all is plaine here. Indeéde here

is that plaine dealing which deuils doe vse. First, doe you thinke Satan lodgeth in an hollow treé? Is hee become so lazy, and idle? hath he left off to be as a roaring lion, seéking whome he may deuour? hath he put off the bloody and cru∣ell nature of the fiery Dragon, so that he mindeth no harm, but when an angrie woman shall intreat him to goe kill a Cow or a horse? Is he become so doting with age, that men shall espie his craft: yea, be found craftier than he is? Alas may there not be deép subtiltie in these things?

Sam.

Doe you thinke there is nothing but subtiltie in these things?

Dan.

Doe I think there is nothing but subtiltie? Tel me what you thinke. What other end can there be but sub∣tiltie?

Sam.

He may haue this purpose (as I think the deuils studie nothing els) to do harme.

Dan.

I doe not denie that: for all his craft tendeth vn∣to harme. But what harme meane you?

Sam.

You seé here he killed mens cattel.

Dan.

It may be he did: but how know you that?

Sam.

You seé he went at her request & killed one horse, and almost killed the other.

Dan.

I wold be loath to adventure my hand vpon that: For who told you, that he killed the one, and almost killed the other?

Sam.

The witch her selfe hath confessed the whole matter.

Dan.

UUho told the witch so?

Sam.

Her spirit told her that he did it at her request.

Dan.

He is a credible person, and kind hee was vnto her as it seémeth.

Sam.

Nay, but we see all things fell out according as she confessed.

Dan.

How doe you meane?

Sam.

UUhy, she confessed her fault, the spirite was an∣grie

with her, afterward she fell out with that man, and vp∣on th•••• his horse died, she confessed she sent the spirit, how could all things fall out so fit?

Dan.

The spirite when she came towardes the treé, as∣ked her, wherfore commest thou? who hath angred theé?

Sam.

He did so.

Dan.

And doe you imagine that the deuill did lie there and knew nothing vntill she came and told him?

Sam.

UUhy neéded he aske to her if he did know?

Dan.

Because hee is subtill: for hee wrought in her heart, and kindled her wrath, and procured the falling out betweene her and that man: he did knowe eyther that the horses at that time had somwhat in them which would bring death, or els that the Lord had giuen him power for to strike them: he moued and wrought in her heart to haue her come againe to the treé: he seémed to be angrie that she had cōfessed before, but was not, but sought to haue things knowne. If he had not knowne that the horse should die, either by some naturall cause, which woulde then breake foorth, or by some power giuen to him, he wold not at this time haue mooued her heart to goe to the treé. And if her wrath had without his suggestion caried her so farre, he could quickly haue turned her: for great is the efficacie of Satans working in the hearts of such.

Sam.

But I marked one thing which you said before, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 that it might be that God giueth sometimes power to the Deuill, euen at the sending of the witch.

Dan.

I say that God in iustice giueth power vnto Satan to delude, because men refuse to loue his trueth: but that maketh not that the deuill obtaineth any power to hurt because the witch sendeth, but the fault is in men, the sinnes of the people giue power to the deuill: for God is offended, and sendeth (as S. Paule saith) strong delusi∣on. But haue you any mo examples to prooue that the De∣uill is not willing to haue witches bewrayed▪

Sam.

I haue heard of many such like, but you say all is but craft, and that he would haue men thinke hee doeth all harmes that are done.

Dan.

The Deuill would haue men beleeue that hee doth all, if he could bring it about: And therefore, it is for his aduantage if he doe hurte, to haue it not kept secrete, but openly to be made knowne.

M. B.

what say you then vnto this, a witch is appre∣hended vpon vehement suspition, and caried before a Iu∣stice: he handleth the matter in such sort that she confesseth, as I heard of one not long since: her confession was to this effect: She had two spirits, one like a Weasill, the other like a Mouse. These, she said, did manie thinges for her. Now, she accused a woman about ten or twelue miles off, whom (it may be) she did not knowe, and yet could name, and not only that, but said, the woman had, as it were, a li∣tle bigge in her mouth, where the spirite did sucke blood.

Dan.

It is a most easie thing for the deuill to tell wit∣ches, that such a man or such a woman is a witch, and hath this or that secret marke vpon them. And within these few yeares he hath by witches and cunning men, accused such as were very religious and godly. Men must beware that they proceed not vpō his testimony: he is not to be medled withall, nor any medling which he vseth, is to be taken in good part, seéing he doth all in deép subtilties.

M. B.

I do take it, that the testimony of the deuill ought not of it selfe to haue any force with a Iurie, vnlesse it can be prooued by some other firme proofes. But what say you vnto this, a witch is condemned, and telleth at the gallows not onlie what she hath done, but also of whom she first had her spirit. She doth this in repentance, and euen readie to depart out of the worlde. It is to bee presumed that she will not in this case lie, nor accuse falsly: Let it be some woman in another towne, whome she saith, brought her the spirite. This woman is also suspected by some of

her neighbours, apprehended and brought to iudgement, and stiflie denieth that she is any witch, or that she euer de∣liuered any spirite vnto the other which accused her. Nowe here is the question, Is not the testimonie of the woman vpon her death, a sufficient warrant for a Iurie to find this woman guiltie? here they haue now the testimonie not of the Deuill to proceéd by, but of a woman, and though not vpon her oath, yet vpon her death, which is no lesse.

Dan.

This testimonie may seeme to be sufficient euen to warrant a Iurie to finde guilty, though it touch life: but if we look well into it, we shall see it is not.

M. B.

It may be you take it to be infirme, because it is the testimony but of one.

Dan.

Nay, not only in respect that it is the testimony but of one, but that it is the testimony of such a one.

M. B.

I put the case of such an one as doeth shew re∣pentance, who though she hath bene bad, yet now may bee beleeued.

Dan.

I do not meane in that respect, as to say she was a witch, and therefore not to be credited: but if shee repent neuer so much, yet her testimony in this is weake, because she may be vtterly deceiued, and think she telleth the truth, when it was nothing so, but she vtterly deluded.

M. B.

Doe you meane, that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 may make the other woman thinke, that such a woman deliuered her the spirit, and neuer no such matter?

Dan.

Yea, that is my meaning.

M. B.

It is farre beyond my reach to seé how that can bee.

Dan.

You must cōsider that the deuil doth many waies delude witches, and make them beleeue things which are nothing so. In Germany and other countries, the deuilles haue so deluded the witches, as to make them beleéue that they raise tempests of lightenings and thunders. For the deuils do know when these things be comming, tempests

of winds, and thunders, and faine would he make the blind world beleéue that those great works of God, be not Gods but his: And that is the cause why he coueteth to appeare in them. These deuils make the witches beleéue, that at their request they kil both men and beasts, and many waies afflict, when as many of the things fal out naturally, which they would seéme to doe, and the rest in which they haue power giuen to worke, they stirre vp the witch but vnder a collour for to send them. These deuils make the witches in some places beleéue, that they are turned into the like∣nesse of wolues, that they rend and teare sheepe, that they meét together & banquet, that sometimes they flie or ride in the ayre, which thinges indeéd are nothing so, but they strongly delude the fantasies of the witches: Euen so the deuill can delude a poore woman with the likenesse of ano∣ther woman deliuering a mouse or a catte vnto her, by ap∣pearing in such a likenes. Or he can set a strong fantasie in the mind that is oppressed with melancholie, that such or such a matter was, which indeéd was neuer so. Men must be wise in these causes, or els may they soon be circumuen∣ted by the craftes of Satan and drawen into great sinne.

M. B.

If it be thus, then how should a Iurie condemne by their verdict any witch? For she hath not killed, nor the deuill at her request, but maketh her beleéue he did it at her request.

Dan.

A witch by the word of God ought to die the death not because she killeth men, for that she cannot (vnlesse it be those witches which kill by poyson, which eyther they re∣ceiue from the deuill, or he teacheth them to make) but be∣cause she dealeth with deuils. And so if a Iurie doe finde proofe that she hath dealt with deuils, they may and ought to find them guiltie of witchcraft.

M. B.

If they find them guilty to haue dealt with de∣uils, and cannot say they haue murdered men, the law doth not put them to death.

Dan.

It wer to be wished, that the law were more per∣fect in that respect, euen to cut off all such abhominations. These cunning men and women which deale with spirites and charmes seéming to doe good, and draw the people in∣to manifold impieties, with all other which haue familia∣rity with deuils, or vse coniurations, ought to bee rooted out, that others might seé and feare.

M. B.

You will not haue the testimony of Deuils to be of any credit with a Iury, what say you then vnto men, there be some which die, and take it vpon their death, that they are bewitched, and will say precisely such or such haue done it. For that is in the other point touching likelihoods.

Dan.

They are bewitched indeéd, for the deuill doeth delude their minds: for you shall finde them able to ren∣der no reason but onlie this, in their conscience the partie is naught and they are out of doubt it is so.

M. B.

That may bee as you say in some, but I haue knowne a woman my selfe which many haue counted to be a witch, and many things haue fallen out where she hath taken displeasure. Do you not thinke that is a firm proofe? She denieth, but the things which fall out, doe manifest her to be naught.

Dan.

You must shew the things, and thereby it will appeare.

M. B.

She fell out, or els at the least seémed to be dis∣pleased with one, and he had an hogge died suddainlie. An other thought she was displeased with him, and his horse fell sicke. A third could not sit vpon his stoole at worke. And within nine or ten yeares space diuers others. One saw the deuill bigger than a cat with great eies. An other was haunted with a spirite. An other brewing, the drinke would not worke in the fatte. An other sawe a thing in her house as big as a lambe, playing in the window: Another in her grieuous torment saw the woman stand by her all the night, whom she suspected to bewitch her, and diuers

such like, which were too long to recken vp. If she were not a witch, how should all these fall out so fit?

Dan.

I haue shewed already, that where Satan hath a witch to deale by, hee bringeth it about, that in all such things as he hath power giuen him of God, he will seéme to do nothing but requested and sent by the witch. In those things which fall out in sicknesses, lamenes & death, vpon naturall causes, he worketh in such sort, as that he maketh the witch beleéue she doeth them. And this hee coueteth to haue breake forth by her confession. Now, where he hath no witch to deale by, he gaineth exceedingly, if hee can worke in the minds of any a strong suspition of any man or wo∣man. For if it be once begun, hee pursueth it with all his power and cunning. If one bee visited with grieuous tor∣ment of sicknes, and be so ignorant, and voide of the faith in Gods prouidence, that he imagine the deuill doeth it at the sending by a witch, the deuill will delude him, and make him beleéue that the witch standeth by him. The man or woman suspected cannot come there: Who then wor∣keth that illusion but Satan? Another is affrayde of the deuill to be sent vnto him, by that partie whome he suspec∣teth to be a witch: and thus through want of faith in God, giueth the deuill the more power ouer him, either to hurt, or to appeare vnto him. For Satan haunteth all men con∣tinuallie, seéking all occasions, and neédeth not to be sent by man or woman. They be exceéding blind which will reason thus, an euill spirit came and appeared vnto me, after I had angred such a woman, therfore she sent him. Satan if he haue power to doe harme, or knowe where somewhat will follow, is hee not cunning to make the party which shall receiue the harme, to fall out with some that hee may suspect, and so the harme may seém to come from that par∣tie? Againe, in feare, in the darke men take some litle cat or dog to be an vglie deuill. As not long since a rugged water Spaniell hauing a chaine, came to a mans doore

that had a saut Bytch, and some espied him in the darke, and said it was a thing as big as a colt, and had eyes as great as saucers. Hereupon some came to charge him, and did charge him in the name of the Father, the Sonne and the holy Ghost, to tell what he was. The dogge at the last told them, for he spake in his language, & said, bowgh, and thereby they did know what he was. If he do knowe where harmes do follow vpon naturall causes in men or beasts, he laboureth either to make them offended, and to fall out with the partie that is suspected, or at the least to perswade thē of such displeasure conceiued, that the harms may seéme to come from the same. If he do torment indeéd hauing power to possesse the bodie, he will not sticke to lie, and to say such a woman sent him.

M. B.

And doeth it not fall out sometimes, that as he saith such a woman sent him, so the woman vpon examina∣tion confesseth so much.

Dan.

Yea, but I speak where he hath no witch to deale by, but pursueth the innocent with suspition vpon suspiti∣on, that men may be guilty of innocent blood. Hee telleth the trueth sometimes, to the end hee may be credited when he doth lie. For let no man be so simple as to thinke, that he will euer tell trueth but for some wicked purpose.

M. B.

Yet this of all the rest seémeth most strange vnto me, how so many things should fall out, as it seémeth, after the displeasure of a suspected person, and some of them such as apparantly are done by Satan, as in drinke not working, or in creame, when butter will not come, and yet the party suspected is not a witch.

Dan.

Oh sir the sleights of Satan in compassing such matters be marueilous. I knowe it is taken (as they say) to be dead sure that the party is a witch, if sundry such shewes of matters do concurre. But how easie a thing is it for crafty deuils to compasse such matters?

M. B.

Then you doe not thinke that common fame

is sufficient to warrant the conscience of the Iuror, to con∣demne any.

Dan.

Experience doeth teach howe heady much peo∣ple are in iudging men or women to be witches vpon eue∣rie surmise. And the power imagined to bee in witches, which breédeth a feare in many, causeth them to bee credu∣lous. Many go so farre, that if they can intice children to accuse their parents, they thinke it a good worke.

M. B.

You say the testimony of the deuill is not to beé taken, although it be manifest that he doth many times tell the trueth, because when he speaketh the trueth, hee doeth it of a bad purpose. And you hold it the testimony of the de∣uil, not only which he speaketh when anie charge him, but also which the cunning men & women giue, in as much as they can say nothing but vpon his word. Moreouer, vnles I mistake you, the testimony of a witch in many things at her death, is not as you say any other than the testimonie of the deuil, because the deuill hath deceiued her, and made her beleéue things which were nothing so. Besides al this, you wil haue likelihoods and suspitions to be of no waight, nor common fame and opinion to mooue the conscience of a Iurie, because Satan is exceéding subtill in all these. Then how shall a Iurie finde a witch? What proofes will you haue?

Dan.

Men are vpon their oath to deale, & it doth touch life, if they doe finde any guiltie of witchcraft. This is a most waightie matter: whereupon it followeth, that there must be eyther due proofe by sufficient witnesses, or els the confession of the witch. For if the testimony be such as may be false, as al that commeth from deuils is to be suspected: or if it be but vpon rumors, and likelihoods, in which there may be exceéding sleights of Satan, as for the most parte there be: how can that Iury answere before God, which vpon their oath are not sure, but that so proceéding they may condemne the innocent, as often it commeth to passe.

M. B.

You mistake one point, for the finding of a witch guilty by a Iury doeth not in all causes touch blood.

Dan.

I am not deceiued, for where the Iurie hauing but likelihoods doth find a man or a woman guilty but for killing a beast, it casteth them into prison, setteth them vp∣on the pillorie, and not only diffameth them for euer, but also if suspition follow again and arraignment, it is death: you seé then how neére a way they haue made vnto blood. But if it touch not blood, but the party escape with the im∣prisonment and pillory, & neuer againe fall into suspition, how grieuous an infamie is it, to haue bene condemned by Iury to be a witch? I speake it where it is only vpon sus∣pition, or suchtestimonie as is onelie from Satan, and the partie may be cleére.

M. B.

It falleth out sometimes that vpon suspition and common fame they hitte right, and the partie which would not confesse any witchery vpon examination, and arraignment, being condemned doth confesse it.

Dan.

Let it be graunted that the Iury vpon Satans testimony, or suspitions and common fame, sometimes hitteth right, which yet I feare is very seldome, that is no warrant before God for men that are sworne, for are they sworne to indict vpō likelihoods, or vpon knowledge in that which vpon sound testimony or confession they shall finde? If the party be a witch which is suspected, & yet no proofe, the Iury doeth more rightly in acquitting, than in con∣demning, for what warrant haue they vpon their oath to goe by gesse, or to find that which they knowe not?

M. B.

I doe take it men offend grieuously, if vpon vn∣sufficient proofe they condemne the innocent, and especial∣ly, because they are solemnly sworne: but if they hit right, though it be only by coniectures and likelihoods, I cannot seé how they should therein offend: they condemne not the innocent, they do the party no wrong.

Dan.

I do not say they are to bee charged with any in∣nocent

blood, or wrong to the partie: but I aske what war∣rant they haue before God vpon oath to touch blood by sus∣pitons. Admit one be arraigned vpon felony, the likeli∣hoods ar great that he is guiltie of the same, but yet it may be heé is cleére. What is a Iurie nowe to doe? Are they to venture vpon the life of a man by their oath by suspitions? Let it be he is one that God knoweth to be guiltie, but no man can disclose the same, and therefore they cleare him, doe they commit anie offence? Are they bound to find that which they cannot know? What innocent person then may not be condemned?

Sam.

I pray you giue me leaue a litle. I doe not well conceiue this matter about finding out and condemning of witches. It is somewhat strange vnto me which you speak I haue my selfe sundry times bene of the Iurie when wit∣ches haue bene arraigned, we haue found them guilty vp∣on common fame, vpon likelihoods, and vpon such testimo∣nie as you disalow. They haue indeéd taken it vpon their deaths that they were innocent, but that neuer made me to doubt but that they were witches: for it is saide, the deuill hath such power ouer them, that he will not suffer them to confesse.

Dan.

What should mooue you to thinke that the deuill will not haue them to confesse? you seé some doe confesse when they be examined, and when they be executed: The deuil hath power ouer the most desperat theéues and mur∣therers?

Sam.

Yea but he careth not so much though the theéues and the murtherers do confesse, it maketh not so much a∣gainst him, as when witches bewray all.

Dan.

What, doe you take it he is loath to be diffamed or hardly thought off? Otherwise what should it make a∣gainst him when witches confesse? It is some step to re∣pentance when theéues and murtherers acknowledge their sinnes, and if he can hinder them, or hold them des∣perate

from confessing he will. It is apparant that he co∣ueteth to haue witches to confesse▪ it maketh so much for him▪ He would haue men iudge that there be an hundred fo••••e more witches than there be. He discloseth by his cun∣ning men & women, and otherwise. He coueteth greatly to haue it thought that he doeth all, in tempestes, in strange plagues and diseases which light vpon man or beast. And for this cause hee maketh the witch beleéue and confesse more than all, that is, that at her request he did that which he neuer did nor could doe: vnlesse we will denie the soue∣raintie, and prouidence of God ouer all.

Sam.

If Satan gaine so much by disclosing them, what should be the reason that men are generally perswaded that he coueteth to haue the thinges kept secret, and so will not let the witch confesse.

Dan.

It ariseth from false perswasions, and frō a false feare that witches doe so many harmes, and that at their sending and request the spirites worke all. If Satan be so kind and seruiceable to the witch: how is it that he doth not fetch her some money? For he knoweth where it is lost, or where it lyeth in mens houses. He telleth the witch he can make a man lame. He saith he can kill an horse. Yea at sometime he will say he can and will (if she will haue it so) kill a man. As if it were in his power to doe many great thinges, and will not but requested. Let vs seé if all the de∣uils can fetch one peny out of a mans house, whose horse or cow they say they haue killed. The coniurer, sayth he, can coniure him into a man, or out of a man: let him coniure him but into a mans chest if he can, to fetch somewhat from thence. If the deuils can not do these thinges, then be assu∣red that either they make but a shew of killing and laming, as they do in the most of such harmes, or else where they do hurt, it is vpon speciall leaue from God, and not from the witches pleasure. And to what purpose then should all such iugglings and shewes serue, if they should be kept close and

not confessed.

Sam.

Yet for my better satisfaction giue me leaue with∣out offence to lay open some particulars which I haue seén. I was of a Iurie not many yeares past, when there was an old woman arrained for a witch. There came in eight or ten which gaue euidence against her. I doe not remember euery particular: but the chiefe for some thinges were of small value. One woman came in and testified vppon her oath that her husband vpon his death bed, tooke it vpon his death, that he was bewitched, for he pined a long time. And he sayde further, he was sure that woman had bewitched him. He tooke her to be naught, and thought she was angry with him, because she would haue borrowed fiue shillinges of him, and he denyed to lend it her. The woman tooke her oath also, that she thought in her conscience that the old wo∣man was a witch, and that she killed her husband. There came in a man that halted, he tolde a shrewde tale. I once, sayd he, had both my legges sound. This old woman and I fell out and did chide. She sayd she would be euen with me. Within thrée daies after I had such a paine in my knée that I could not stand. And euer since I go haulting of it, and now and then féele some paine. There came in an other, a little fellowe that was very earnest, me thinkes I sée him yet. He tooke his oath directly that she was a witch: I did once anger her sayde he, but I did repent me: for I looked somewhat would follow. And the next night, I saw the vg∣liest sight that euer I saw: I awaked suddainely out of my sléepe, and there was me thought a great face, as bigge as they vse to set vp in the signe of the Saracens-head, looked full in my face. I was scarce mine owne man two dayes after. An other came in, a woman and her child dyed with gréeuous paine, & she tooke her oath, that in her conscience she killed her child. Then followed a man, and he sayde he could not tell, but he thought she was once angry with him because she came to begge a few pot-hearbes, and he denied

her: and presently after he heard a thing as he thought to whisper in his eare, thou shalt be bewitched. The next day he had such a paine in his back, that he could not sit vpright: he sayd he sent to a cunning woman, shee tolde he was be∣witched, and by a woman that came for pot-hearbes. But she sayd he should recouer of it, and so he sayd he did within some tenne dayes. Then came in two or thrée graue honest men, which testified that she was by common fame accoun∣ted a witch. We found her giltie, for what could we doe lesse, she was condemned and executed: and vpon the ladder she made her prayer, and tooke it vpon her death shee was innocent and frée from all such dealings. Do you thinke we did not well?

Dan.

Nay what thinke you? Are you sure she was a witch? May it not be she was innocent, and you vpon your oathes shed innocent bloud?

Sam.

If she were innocent what could we do lesse? we went according to the euidence of such as were sworne, they swore that they in their conscience tooke her to bee a witch, and that she did those thinges.

Dan.

If other take their oath that in their conscience they thinke so, is that sufficient to warrant men vpon mine oath to say it is so?

Sam.

Nay, but you sée what matters they brought, which perswaded them to thinke so.

Dan.

Might not both you and they be deceiued in your thinking, or may you vpon matters which may induce you to thinke so, present vppon your oath that you knowe it is so?

Sam.

If witnesses come in and sweare falsely, the Iu∣rie procéeding according, their testimonie is cleare from blame, for they goe but by testimonie of men sworne.

Dan.

If witnesses doe sweare directly that in their knowledge a matter was so or so, and sweare falsely, the Iurie is cleare which procéedeth according to their euidence:

vnlesse the Iurie do perceiue that their oath can not be true. But what is that to make the testimonie sufficient where men doe but thinke, and can shewe no necessarie reason to ground their thought vpon? As let vs sée in all these which one could prooue that she must néedes be a witch. One saith her husband tooke it vpon his death that she killed him, be∣cause he would not lend her fiue shillings: doth this prooue she bewitched him? Can the deuill kill a man at his plea∣sure, to gratifie the witch? Is it not rather to be iudged he dyed of some pining sicknesse growing from an euill con∣stitution of body, which the deuill did know, and would set him at some variance with one old woman or other, that so it might bréede suspition of witchcraft.

Sam.

You sée there were some things which could not be done but by the deuill.

Dan.

In déede the great face which the man thought he saw, was the illusion of the deuill. But is this a good proofe, the deuill appeareth to a man after he hath displeased a wo∣man, therefore she sent him? Doth not Satan haunt all men continually, and would if he could get leaue from God, terrifie them with such illusions▪ When men are affraide, and haue strong imaginations? What reason did the wo∣man shew which tooke it vpon her conscience that the olde woman killed her child, to prooue that it was so? If shée thought so in her conscience, and tenne thousand more with her vpon bare imagination, was that a warrant for you to sweare solemnely that it was so? As for the testimony of the cunning woman that he was bewitched which had the paine in his backe, vpon the deniall of pot-hearbes, it was the testimony but of the deuill, as I shewed before. And what is common fame grounded vpon imaginations?

Sam.

Then you thinke we did amisse do you?

Dan.

I would not vpon mine oath doe such a thing for to gaine a kingdome.

Sam.

It may be she was a witch, although she tooke it

vpon her death that she was not.

Dan.

It is rather to be thought she was not a witch: for what should make her deny it vpon her death? The de∣uill had accused her to be a witch, for direct testimonie a∣gainst her but his.

Sam.

You say it was the deuill that told by the cunning woman that she was a witch.

Dan.

And do you thinke it was any other but Satan?

Sam.

I did not at that time thinke it was the deuill: but now I sée it could be none other.

Dan.

Then be wiser hereafter, and sorie for that which you haue done.

Sam.

In déede I haue cause to be gréeued if shee were not a witch.

Dan.

If she were a witch your warrant was small: but she being no witch, you haue taken away both her life, and couered her with infamie.

Sam.

I was of an other Iurie since, and there was a woman indicted for a witch, but not for killing any man or child. There came in fiue or sixe against her: the first was an old woman, and she sayd she had displeased her, as shee thought, and within two or thrée nights after as she sate by her fire, there was a thing like a toad, or like some little crabbe fish which did créepe vpon the earth, she tooke a bea∣some & swept it away, and suddainly her bodie was griped. An other fell out with her as she sayd, and her hennes began to die vp, vntil she burnt one henne aliue. A third man came in, and he sayd she was once angry with him, he had a dun cow which was tyed vp in a house, for it was in winter, he feared that some euill would follow, and for his life he could not come in where she was, but he must néedes take vp her tayle and kisse vnder it. Two or thrée other came in & sayd she was by common fame accounted a Witch. We found her giltie, and she was condemned to prison, and to the pil∣lorie, but stoode stiffe in it that she was no witch.

Dan.

And are you sure she was one?

Sam.

I thinke verily shee was one, although there be many of her neighbors which thinke she is none: for how could those thinges followe so vpon her anger? It séemeth they were all done by the deuill.

Dan.

He is cunning that can tell that: let it be that it was the deuil which appeared to the old woman like a toad, or like a crabbe fish, and that he did gripe her bodie: doth it follow therefore of necessitie that the other woman sent him? He can not turne him selfe into any likenesse vnlesse God giue him leaue, as he doth in iustice permit that so he may delude ignorāt persons▪ No witch can giue him power to appeare vnto any in a visible shape. He had this graun∣ted him from God, and Satan by and by will set anger, and then appeare, that it might séeme it grew from that.

Sam.

Wee sée he appeareth vnto witches, and con∣iurers.

Dan.

Yea but we may not thinke he can at his plea∣sure take a likenes for to appeare in. That he doth appeare vnto witches and coniurers, it is graunted in Gods wrath to the ende he may strongly delude such wicked people as will not heare and obey the voyce of the Lord God. For the deuils are chained vp by Gods most mightie power & pro∣uidence, and in all thinges so farre as he letteth foorth their chaine, so farre they procéede, one inch further they can not procéede. Where men loue darkenes more then light, hée hath leaue giuen him to do many thinges. Some he terri∣fieth with vgley shapes, some he intiseth with faire shewes, others he playeth withall in liknes of a Weasell, or Mouse, or some such small vermine.

Sam.

I thought Satan could appeare in what likenesse he would, and to whom he would, if the witch sent him.

Dan.

Therein you were much deceiued: for the sending by the witch can giue him no power, and if he had power, he would no doubt in all places appeare vnto many as farre

and in such sort, as should best serue his turne. Therefore if he appeare vnto any man, let him thinke God hath giuen him leaue to goe thus farre with me, and let him call for faith to resist him, and for true wisedome that he may not be deceiued nor deluded by him.

Sam.

But doth he not appeare sometimes when the witches send him?

Dan.

Where he findeth it is graunted vnto him for to appeare, he moueth witches to sende him if he haue any to deale by: but if there be none, yet will he appeare, & deale so farre as he hath power giuen him.

Sam.

But what say you to the womans hennes?

Dan.

What should one say to them when they be dead.

Sam.

I meane doe you not thinke they were bewit∣ched?

Dan.

Christ saith, a Sparrow can not fall without the will of your heauenly Father: and is not a henne as good as a Sparrow?

Sam.

Nay I am fully perswaded by that which you haue sayd, that the deuill can not touch any thing to kill or to hurt it, but vpon speciall leaue from God. They can giue him no power, she thinketh she setteth him on, and it is he that setteth her on worke. Let these things be no more cal∣led into question: but was it not euident that the deuill kil∣led those hennes? because after the burning of one henne, the woman had no mo that dyed. If Satan did it not, how could they cease dying for that? You sayd that he where hee hath power to hurt in such bodely harmes, is willing to cease, that such wickednesse may be practised. And then if this hurt were done by the deuill, is it not to bee thought that the woman was a witch, séeing it followed after shee was angry? Let it be that Satan hauing power to do that he did, would be sent by the witch for a colour, and to make it euident did set anger betwéen her and that other woman, to make men thinke that he would not deale, but intreated

by her being angry. And so we could doe no lesse but finde her a witch.

Dan.

These be weake foundations to set such a weigh∣tie building vpon. For first it is not certaine that the deuill killed those hennes. Might be they had some infection which he did knowe would kill them, and he craftily bring∣eth the matter about, maketh two women fall out (which is the easiest matter of an hundreth) euen vpon the dying of the hennes, that so it might séeme they were bewitched. But you say then, how could it be that vpon the burning of an henne, there dyed no more, if the deuill did not kill them? Nay how can you tell but that there should no more haue died, although the liue henne had not béene burned? What if he sawe there should no more die, and thereupon mooued the heart of that woman to vse that witchcraft in burning a henne, that it might séeme that was a present re∣medie to driue away deuils? Or put case he had the power to kill the womans hennes, eyther he is a weake killer, or else he goeth to his worke but lazely. He could kill a great heard of swine quickly when Christ gaue him leaue: could he not if the woman had fiue thousand hennes, haue killed them all at once? Why did the foole then but nibble killing now one and then one, and so was scared away before he had killed all? If he had power before the henne was burnt for to kill why did he not then when they went about to burne an hen kill the rest? It may be he did not knowe what they went about, he was layd soft in his potte of wooll: and comming to kill an other henne, he was mette withall, he smelt the coastmeat, and was scared.

Sam.

Then you thinke he did not kill those hennes.

Dan.

What certainetie had you that he did kill them? You found it vpon your oath that he killed them, and that such a woman sent him and set him a worke, and yet it is an hundreth to one hee neuer had power for to touch them.

Sam.

But what can you say to the other? The man which could not chuse but kisse vnder his cowes tayle?

Dan.

I say he was farre in loue with his cow. Let such men learne to know God, & to expell fantasies out of their mindes that the deuill may not haue such power ouer thē, for he worketh in the fantasies of mans mind, and the more strongly where they feare him, as it appeareth this man did. Satan did worke in this mans minde many foolish imaginations, and to make him beleéue he was bewitched he maketh him fall out with one that may be suspected. And thus you Iurie men take your oath & condemne ma∣ny innocent persons, because you beleéue the deuill, & ima∣gine that witches do that which they can not do.

M. B.

I haue heard of many that haue beéne condem∣ned for witches which haue taken it vpon their death that they were innocent. And sundry of thē haue had farre wea∣ker proofes brought against them then these that haue bin mentioned.

Dan.

Yea that is it which I say, men do so little consi∣der the high soueraignety and prouidence of God ouer all things: they ascribe so much to the power of the deuill and and to the anger of witches, and are in such feare of them, that the least shew that can be made by the sleights of Sa∣tan deceiueth them. The only way for men that will eschew the suares & subtilties of the deuil and all harmes by him, is this, euen to heare the voyce of God, to be taught of him by his liuely word which is full of pure light to discouer & expell the darke mistes of Satan in which he leadeth men out of the way. and to be armed with faith to resist him, as the holy Apostle S. Peter willeth, so such as doe forsake this way are seduced into grosse errors & into many abo∣minable sinnes, which carrie men to destruction. I must now bidde you farewell.

M. B.

I could be content to heare more in these mat∣ters, I seé how fondly I haue erred. But seéing you must

be gone, I hope we shall meéte here againe at some other time, God keépe you.

Sam.

I am bound to giue you great thankes. And I pray you when occasion serueth, that you come this way, let vs seé you at my house.

M. B.

I thought there had not beéne such subtill prac∣tises of the deuil, nor so great sinnes as he leadeth mē into.

Sam.

It is strange to seé how many thousands are ca∣ried awry and deceiued, yea many that are very wise men.

M. B.

The deuill is too craftie for the wisest, vnlesse they haue the light of Gods word.

The wife of Sam.

Husband yonder commeth the good wife R.

Sam.

I would she had come sooner.

The good wife R.

Ho, who is within, by your leaue.

The wife of Sam.

I would you had come a litle sooner, here was one euen now that sayd you are a witch.

The good wife R.

Was there one sayd I am a witch? you do but iest.

The wife of Sam.

Nay I promise you he was in good earnest.

The good wife R.

I a Witch? I defie him that sayth it, though he be a Lord. I would all the witches in the land were hanged, and their spirits by them.

M. B.

Would not you be glad if their spirites were hanged vp with them to haue a gowne furred with some of their skinnes.

The good wife R.

Out vpon them, there were furre.

Sam.

Wife why diddest thou say that he sayd the good wife R. is a witch? he did not say so.

The wife of Sam.

Husband I did marke his wordes well ynough, he sayd she is a witch.

Sam.

He doth not know her, and how could he say she is a witch?

The wife of Sam.

What though he did not know her? did he not say she played the witch that hette the spitte red

hotte, and thrust it into her creame, when the butter would not come?

Sam.

Indeéde wife, thou sayest true, he said that was a thing taught by the deuill, as also the burning of an henne or of an hogge aliue, and all such like deuises.

The good wife R.

Is that witchcraft? Some scrip∣ture man hath tolde you so. Did the deuill teach it? Nay the good woman at R. H. taught it my husband: she doeth more good in one yeare than all these scripture men will doe so long as they liue.

M. B.

Who doe you thinke taught it the cunning wo∣man at R.H.

The good wife R.

It is a gift which God hath giuen her, I thinke the holie spirite of God doth teach her.

M. B.

You doe not thinke then that the deuill doeth teach her?

The good wife R.

How should I thinke that the De∣uill doeth teach her? Did you euer heare that the deuill did teach any good thing?

M. B.

Doe you know that was a good thing?

The good wife R.

Was it not a good thing to driue the euill spirit out of my creame?

M. B.

Do you thinke the deuill was affraid of your spit?

The good wife R.

I knowe he was driuen away, and we haue bene rid of him euer since.

M. B.

Can a spit hurt him?

The good wife R.

It doth hurt him, or it hurteth the witch: One of them I am sure: for he commeth no more. Either she cā get him come no more, because it hurteth him: or els she will let him come no more, because it hurteth her.

M. B.

It is certaine that spirites cannot be hurt but with spirituall weapons: therefore your spit cannot fraie nor hurt the deuill. And how can it hurt the witch, you did not thinke she was in your creame, did you?

The good wife R.

Some thinke she is there, & there∣fore, when they thrust in the spitte they say, If thou beest

here haue at thine eie.

M. B.

If she were in your creame, your butter was not very cleanly.

The good wife R.

You are merrily disposed M. B. I know you are of my minde, though you put these questi∣ons to me. For I am sure none hath counselled more to go to the cunning folke than you.

M. B.

I was of your minde, but I am not nowe, for I seé how foolish I was. I am sorie that euer I offended so grieuously as to counsaill any for to seéke vnto deuils.

The good wife R.

Why, M. B. who hath schooled you to day? I am sure you were of another mind no longer agone than yesterday.

The wife of Sam.

Truely goodwife R. I thinke my husband is turned also: here hath bene one reasoning with them threé or foure howers.

The good wife R.

Is your husband turned to? I wold you might loose all your hens one after an other, and then I would she would set her spirite vpon your duckes and your geése, and leaue you not one aliue. Will you come to de∣fend witches?

M. B.

We do not defend witches.

The good wife R.

Yes, yes, there be too many that take their part, I would they might witch some of thē euen into hell, to teach others to defend them. And you M.B. I wold your nagge might hault a little one of these dayes: seé whe∣ther you would not be glad to seéke helpe.

M. B.

I would seéke helpe, I would carry him to the smith to search if he were not pricked or graueld.

The good wife R.

Tush you laugh, If you were plag∣ued as some are, you wold not make so light account of it.

M. B.

You thinke the deuill can kill mens cattell, and lame both man and beast at his pleasure: you thinke if the witch intreate him and send him he will go, and if she will not haue him go, he will not meddle. And you thinke when he doth come, you can driue him away with an hoat spitte,

or with burning a liue henne or a pigge.

The good wife R.

Neuer tell me I thinke so, for you your selfe haue thought so: and let them say what they can all the Scripture men in the world shall neuer perswade me otherwise.

M. B.

I do wonder, not so much at your ignorance as at this, that I was euen of the same mind that you are and could not seé mine owne folly.

The good wife R.

Folly? how wise you are become of a suddaine? I know that their spirits lye lurking, for they foster them: and when any body hath angred them, then they call them forth and send them. And looke what they bid them do, or hire them to do, that shall be done: as when she is angry, the spirite will aske her what shall I do? such a man hath misused me sayth she, go kill his Cow, by and by he goeth & doth it. Go kill such a womans hens, downe go they. And some of them are not content to do these lesser harmes, but they will say, go make such a man lame, kill him, or kill his child. Then are they readie and will do a∣ny thing: And I thinke they be happy that can learne to driue them away.

M. B.

If I should reason with you out of the worde of God, you should seé that all this is false which you say. The deuill can not kill nor hurt any thing no not so much as a poore henne. If he had power who can escape him? Would he tarrie to be sent or intreated by a woman? he is a stirrer vp vnto all harmes and mischiefes.

The good wife R.

What tell you me of Gods worde? doth not Gods word say there be witches, and doe not you thinke God doth suffer bad people? Are you a turnecote? Fare you well, I will talke no longer with you.

M. B.

She is wilfull in deéde. I will leaue you also.

Sam.

I thanke you for your good companie.

FINIS.