Tvvo treatises written against the papistes the one being an answere of the Christian Protestant to the proud challenge of a popish Catholicke: the other a confutation of the popish churches doctrine touching purgatory & prayers for the dead: by William Fulke Doctor in diuinitie.

Origen is alleged for our cause, vpon vvhose errour in a matter somevvhat appertayning to our purpose, S Augustins iudge∣ment is more largely sought: and therevvith it is declared by testimony of diuers holy authors, vvhat sinnes be chiefly purged in that temporall fire. CAP. VIII.

1 THese three noble learned men might right well sa∣tisfie our search, for the sense of the textes both of the Prophet and Apostle, and perswade any reaso∣nable man in the whole cause: yet for that there be ••ome that meane not to relent in their lewde opinions, for light proffers, I will store them with testimonies.

Origenes, one of great antiquity, in many places of his works vnderstandeth both the sayd textes of Malachie and S. Paule in the like sorte: by whom we may well take a great taste of the time and Church where he liued, what men of wisedom & vertue then iudged of thinges, which now of fooles be contemned, and of he∣retikes condemned also.* 1.1 But namely vpon the Prophet Ieremy in these wordes: Si post fundamentum Iesu Christi, non so∣lum in tuo corde aurum, argentum, & lapidem preciosum

superae dificaueris, verum & ligna, foenum, & stipulam, quid tibi vis fieri cum anima seiuncta fuerit a corpore? vtrum ne ingredi vis in sancta cum lignis tuis, & foeno, & stipula, vt polluas regnum Dei? an propter lignum, foe∣num, & stipulam, foris residere vis, & pro auro, argento, lapide precioso, nil mercedis accipere? sed neque hoc ae∣quum est. Quid ergo sequitur, nisi vt primum propter li∣gnum ignis tibi detur, qui consumat foenum, lignum, & sti∣pulam. &c. If vpon the foundation, which is Christ Iesus, thou do not onely builde golde, siluer, and preciouse stone, but also woodde, hay, and strawe, what doest thou looke for after thy death? wilt thou entre into the holy places with thy woodde, hay, and stooble, and defile the kingdome of God? or els for thy wood, hay, and straw, thou wilt abide forthe: and so liese the rewarde of thy golde, siluer, and preciouse stone? But that were no rea∣son: then there is no waye but one, first to receiue fire for to con∣sume and burne out thy woodde, hay, and stooble: and then afterwarde to receiue for thy better workes, the rewarde of sal∣uation. so sayth Origen. VVhose iudgement if any man mis∣trust in this point, because he erred in other, let him learne to miscredit only his or other mens singular opiniōs & priuate phā∣tasies, wherein they disagreed from the residue of the common body of Christ his Church,* 1.2 & not contemne in any man the con∣firmation of the vniuersall sense, which he findeth in the vni∣forme doctrine of all other Christian Catholikes. In deede it was so euident, that this Purgatory fire of which the Apostle spea∣keth, shoulde be in the other life, that this learned man after∣warde, leauing the meaning which the holy Church had opened for the proofe of certeine transitory punishment in the next worlde for meaner offenders, would of his owne head go forwarde (which is the bane of many a goodly wit) and mainteine that all greuous crimes,* 1.3 and most wicked maners might be purged by this fire after death, and the parties in time saued, so that they had faith for their foundation: whereby (as S. Augustine no∣teth of him) he made onely faith to saue the wicked,* 1.4 without re∣pentaunce or good workes.

CAP. VIII.

1 WHether M. Allen knew that his former wit∣nesses did not agree, or that he would geue a tast of his bountifull dealing in pressing vs with more testimonies then needed, he will nowe produce Origen, whom though he confesse to be infamouse for heresy, yet euē of his error, he wil not doubt but to grounde his purgatory. Origen will haue men passe through a fire, but to make it plaine that he meaneth not y^e fier of Popish purgatory, we shal perceiue by other places of his writings, that he speaketh of such a fire, as all men be they neuer so iust, shall passe through, affirming that all mē haue neede of purifications after his life, ye Peter & Paule and such like in Num. Hom. 25. & in Psal. 36. Hom. 3. But all men passe not through the Popes purgatory. I passe ouer here the grosse allegory, that he maketh of the bloude of Deuils by which a man shalbe washed and purified in the kingdome of God, that being so purified and made cleane he may enter into the city of God. Num. Hom. 25. But how soeuer he doteth about passage through fier and purifica∣tions after this life, yet he affirmeth in an other place that the day of Christian mens death is the deposition of paine, whereby it appereth that either he was not constant with him selfe, or els that Origens purgatory was a painlesse pur∣gatory. His wordes are in Iob Lib. 3. Nam priores diem nati∣uitatis celebrabant, vnam vitam diligentes, & aliam post hanc non sperantes. Nunc vero nos non natiuitatis diem celebramus, cum sit dolorum atque tentationum introitus, sed mortis diem ce∣lebramus, vtpote omnium dolorum depositionem, atque omnium tentationum effugationem. The former men did celebrate, the daye of natiuity, as they that loued but one life, and hoped for none after this. But now we doe not celebrate the daye of Natiuitie, seeing it is the entrance of sorrowes and temptations, but we celebrate the daye of death, as that which is a deposition of all griefes, and an auoyding of all temptations.

2 Against which perniciouse error the said doctor often wri∣teth: and proueth that this place of S. Paule can not make for the deliuery of the wicked or greuous offenders in any case. And being somewhat vrged by the aduersaries arguments, or els be∣cause he woulde take all holde from them which they seemed to haue by that scripture he seeketh them out an other meaning, not contrary at all to the trueth of Purgatory: but yet farther of their purpose. Declaring that this fire might (as he saith there) signify some griefe of this worlde, for the abating of some inordi∣nate affectiōs that be found in many euen towards things other∣wise lawfull. Though he was very loth to auouch this as the vn∣douted meaning of that scripture, being pleaced with any other whereby they shoulde not be forced to deny the eternall damna∣tion of impenitent sinners: as in deede he neuer gaue this mea∣ning but where the Origenistes did vrge him, and in such places onely where he aunswereth to Origens arguments, for in other places where he was free from contention with the saide sects, he euer in expresse termes grounded the doctrine of Purgatory vpō the Apostles wordes. Yea euen in the same answere to the aduer∣sary he was so mindefull of Gods iustice in the world to come, and ferd lest he might geue any occasion of the contrary error to deny purgatory, that in the same talke with the Origenistes, he confes∣seth there might well be some griefe in the next life also, which might likewise purge and deliuer a man from the loue of transi∣tory thinges, wherwith the best sorte of men be in this our misery often very sore loden. Although in dede he doubted whether any such affection and loue of thinges deare vnto vs in this worlde, as of wife, kinred, acquaintance,* 1.5 or such like might remaine in man after his departure hense, & so there in time to be lessened, and in fine vtterly remoued or worne away, by some griefe and sorow which in the next life might by the lacke of the said things, vexe and molest his minde. As we see it commonly fall in this present life, where mā by diuerse profitable troubles of this world, learneth to set light by thinges, which in ordre he might well loue: being for all that more merite to forsake them. And of this point S. Augustine hath these wordes in one place:* 1.6 Tale ali∣quid fieri etiam post hanc vitam incredibile non est: & vtrum ita sit quaeri potest, some such thing may well be after this life,

and thereof question may be made. By which wordes, the here∣tikes of our time either of ignorance or of malice (which be euer yoked together in such men) haue borne the simple in hande,* 1.7 that this holy doctour doubted of Purgatory. A litle holde will serue such wringers: because he doubted of it, they beleue, as they thinke by good authority, that with out doubt there is none at all. If S. Augustine had but saide, belike there is no such meane place in the life following: mary sir then they might haue picked more matter of their infidelity: & yet of that speach determining no certeinty, there had bene no great cause why they shoulde haue forsaken the iudgement of Gods Church. But now he so doubteth, that he findeth more cause to thinke there shoulde be one, then that any man might gather vpon his words, that there shoulde be none at all. No nor he neuer went so farre good reader, as to make any doubt of Purgatory paines, for pu∣nishment of sinnes committed in the worlde. For in all the same bookes where he hath the like saing, and almost in the very same places, he holdeth as a matter of faith, and to be beleued of all Christian men, that the prayers of the lieuing do release some of their paines in the next life. And he constantly as all other Ca∣tholikes euer did, confesseth that the sinnes or vncleane workes of the liuing not duely by penaunce wiped away in this worlde, must be mended after our death: although it be very doubtefull in deede, whether there be any worldely affections left in mans mind vntaken vp by death and resolution of the body and the soule, the care and remembraunce whereof, might be afterward by sorrow both purged and punished.

And this to be his meaning, and that he termeth here purga∣tory, the griefe which a man hath in losing that which he loued in this mortall life, his owne wordes testifie in euery of those workes in which he keepeth this combate with Origenistes.* 1.8 In one place thus: Quod sine illicienti amore non habuit, sine dolore vrente non perdet: & ex earum rerum amissione tan∣tum necesse est vt vrat dolor, quantum haeserat amor. That which by ticklinge loue was kept, can not be lost with out burning griefe. And looke how fast the loue of such thinges did cleane to mans minde, so farre must sorow burne. So in the like talke with the saide Origenistes,* 1.9 in his booke de fide & operibus, he fol∣loweth

the same signification of Purgatory. Haec igitur (sayth he) quoniam affectu dilecta carnali non sine dolore amit∣tuntur, qui sic ea habent, in eorum amissione passi detrimē∣tum, per ignem quendam doloris perueniunt ad salutem: these thinges being by carnall affection loued, be not lightly lost without griefe, and therfore those that thus be affectionate, feele losse in parting from them: and so come to saluation through the fire of sorow. such a sadnesse the yonge man that demaunded of our maister the waye to heauen, conceiued straight,* 1.10 when motion was onely made, of distribution of his goods. VVho being other∣wise in the state of saluation, and to be borne withall, because he was a iust man and lacked not the foundation of his faith, yet the very losse or leauing of his goods, was vnto him (if he continued in that affection) a wonderfull great torment, & as S. Augustine here calleth it, a kinde of purgatory: the which, perfect men, that esteme all the trashe of this worlde as durte and donge to winne Christ, feele not at all: whome the doctour supposeth therefore, to take no domage in the losse of thinges which they so litle loued.

Now in euery place where this expositiō is founde (as I thinke it is neuer in all his workes, lightly, but in conference with the Origenistes) he alwayes addeth that the like fire of sorow may also correct the affections euen of the departed, but yet whether it be so or no, he counteth it a question of probable disputation, rather then any matter of faith, as it is in deede very doubtfull whether any such vnordinate affectiō may remaine vntaken vp after mans departure, which by griefe and sorow in the other worlde may be in time wholy consumed. And further he neuer doubted. For in that famous worke of the Citie of God,* 1.11 with in two Chapters of that doubt made of this kind of purgation, which we now haue declared, he vttereth his faith with Gods Church, of that greate torment and iust punishment of sinnefull life, not sufficiently purged by penaunce in our time, which he calleth the Amending fire: and thus he sayth there. Tales etiam constat, ante iudicij diem per poenas temporales quas eo∣rum spiritus patiuntur purgatos, receptis corporibus ae∣terni ignis supplicijs non tradendos, &c. It is certaine (sayth he) Constat, (which is no worde of doubtefullnesse) that such men being purged by the temporall paines, which

their soules do suffer before the day of iudgement, shall not after they haue receiued their bodies againe, be committed to the tor∣ment of the euerlasting fire.* 1.12 This he vttereth in the same place where he doubteth of the other kinde of purgation: as he con∣fesseth him selfe to be uncertaine of the whole exposition, refu∣sing none at all that were agreable to faith, and woulde not helpe the falsehood which he thē refuted. In his Enchir: where he dis∣puteth against the same error,* 1.13 he so litle doubteth, that he calleth Purgatory damnatiō though not perpetuall, as that which might be both eased and vtterly remoued by the sacrifice & suffragies of the Church.

And thus did that graue author withstād Origen then, whose followers were as it may be thought very busie and troublesome in those daies and long after. But yet his sure staffe against that error was this, and the most common defense of all Catholikes, that the temporall paines in the next worlde coulde neuer deli∣uer the great & greuous sinners that died with out repentaunce or remission of their sinnes, from euerlasting death: because that torment was prepared for the small offensies which we call ve∣niall sinnes: by which the holy Apostle ment, vnder the names of the base substances of woodde,* 1.14 hay, and straw, as these wordes of much importaunce may well declare: There be diuerse (sayth he) that misconstruing these wordes of S. Paule before al∣leaged,* 1.15 by ouer vaine security & confidence deceiue them selues, beleuing that if they do builde capitall and greuous crimes vpon the foundation which is Christ, they shall be purged through fire, and them selues afterwarde escape to euerlasting life: but this vnderstanding, good brethern, must be corrected. For those that so flatter them selues, shameful∣ly do beguile them selues. For that fire which the Apostle speaketh of in these wordes: He shall be saued through fier, purgeth not mortall sinnes, but smaller offensies onely.

2 Now followeth a confuse and tedious discourse of Augustines iudgement, touching Origens error, but it may be reduced vnto these two pointes. First why Augustine woulde not interprete that place of Paule. 1. Cor. 3. of pur∣gatory: and secondly whether Augustine were in any doubt

at all of purgatory, betwene which two questions is be∣gotten a thirde conclusion, that purgatory serueth onely for veniall and light offences. To the first he seemeth to say, that Augustine refuseth to vnderstand that place of pur∣gatory, either because he colde not otherwise withstād the arguments of the Originests, or els because he woulde take all holde away from them, rather then that it was his con∣stant iudgement, because in other places, where he was free from contētion he euer groūded purgatory vpō that place. How honorable this aunswere is for Augustine, or how be∣neficiall for Allen, vsing Augustines authoritie, I referre to be iudged of all them that be wise and learned. To the se∣cond he sayth, that Augustine neuer doubted, whether there were any paines of purgatory after this life, but whether men after their death reteined any carnall affections. I will once againe reherse the wordes of Augustine, that all indif∣ferent, men may iudge, whether M. Allens aunswere may stande with his saying in a reasonable meaning. Tale ali∣quid etiam post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est: & vtrum ita sit quaeri potest. It is not vncredible, that some such thing is doen after this life, and whether it be or no, it may be enquired of, that is (sayth M. Allen) whether men haue any carnall affection to their wiues, children &c. after this life, it may be a question. But Augustine goeth further in the same place and sayth: Et aut inueniri aut latere, nonnullos fi∣deles, per ignem quendam purgatorium quanto magis minúsue, bona pereuntia dilexerunt, tanto tardius citiusque saluari. Non tamen tales de quibus dictum est, quod regnum Dei non posside∣bunt, nisi conuenientes poenitentibus eadem crimina remittan∣tur. And either it may be founde, or still be hidde, that some of the faithfull, by a certaine purgatory fire, by how much they haue more or lesse loued transitory Gods, by so much later or soner, are they saued, but yet not such, of whome it is saued, that they shall not possesse the kingdome of God, except the same crimes be forgeuen them being suf∣ficiently repentaunt for them. These wordes are so plaine against M. Allens new forged meaning, that I suppose he neuer reade them in Augustines owne bookes, but onely re∣ceiued

his notes of some elder Papists, that had spent more time in gathering them, but had not such audacity to vtter them as M. Allen, of which coniecture, there is no small likelyhoode sone after. I omitte his foolish supposition, if S. Augustine had but saied: belike there is no such meane place in the life following. &c. I haue already with out M. Allens suppositiō shewed, that Augustine some where sayd, he knew neither thirde place, nor meane place, nor none coulde finde in the holy Scriptures, nor Gospell of God. Neuer∣thelesse with much wrangling to defende the vncerteinety or vnconstancy of Augustines iudgement touching purga∣tory, we haue wonne so much, that purgatory serueth to purge none but very smal and light offences. But how longe shall we holde this? Scarse to the latter ende of this chap∣ter. For in the next capter, he findeth out a shifte to wring in heynous and deadly sinnes also. For els the release of small faultes, woulde not be halfe so gainefull.

3 To this purpose S. Hieroms wordes, or the reuerēd Bedes whether you wil, (for either of their graue authorities shall serue my turne) do wholy agree in the expositiō of this sentence,* 1.16 Mor∣tuo homine impio non erit vltra spes. A wicked man being once departed, is past recouery or hope. VVhere the author wri∣teth thus. Heu misere hoc pertransit Origenes, qui post vniuersale iudicium vitam credidit omnibus impijs dādam, Notandum autem quod etsi impijs post mottem spes veniae non sit, sunt tamen qui de leuioribus peccatis, cum quibus obligati defuncti sunt: post mortem possunt absolui. Origen passed ouer this text pitifully, that beleued all the wicked should haue at length life euerlasting, after the day a•• generall iudge∣ment. Yet this is to be noted, that although there be no hope of pardon for the wicked after their death, yet there be certaine which may be released of lighter trespasses, in the bonde of which they departed out of this worlde. And so doth Oecumenius a Greeke author, expounde S. Pauls wordes of veniall sinnes: for the purgation of which, he douteth not but that there is a fire of iudgement in the life to come.* 1.17 Ipse autem saluabitur: quis? Qui aurum, argentum, lapides preciosos superae dificauerit:

cum enim dixisset de eo quod mercedem accipiet, nūc qua∣lem mercedem aperit: salutem scilicet. Saluabitur autem non sine dolore, vt par est saluari per ignem transeuntem, & adhaerentes sibi leues maculas purgātem. thus in English. By whome is it spoken when he sayth, he shall be saued? By him it is spoken that buildeth on the foundatiō, golde, siluer and pre∣ciouse stones. For when he had tolde vs that such shoulde haue a rewarde, nowe he openeth what that rewarde shoulde be: to wit, saluatiō. And yet he must not be saued without all paine, as there is no cause why he should, that must passe through fire, and there∣by be purged of the smaller spottes which sticke by him. In the same sense doth Theodoretus both expounde the wordes of the Apostle, and vtter his iudgement of Purgatory also:* 1.18 and almost the rest of all the Latine or Greeke writers, which my purposed breuitie with plentifull proofe otherwise forceth me to leaue to the studious reader.

3 Next ensueth the authoritie of Ieronym or Bede, or perhaps, neither of them both, but yet of some olde writer, which holdeth, that from light sinnes, men may be absol∣ued after their death by paynes, prayers, almes, or masses. This was a writer for M. Allens tooth, but neither of anti∣quitie, nor credit sufficient to cary away this cause.

The iudgement of Oecumenius and Theodoretus, though they were writers about that time, when corruption of do∣ctrine had greatly preuailed, yet are they not cleare for po∣pish purgatory, which the greeke Church although they pray for the dead, yet would neuer agree to acknowledge.

4 One place more I will onely adde out of Remigius, because he learnedly may knit vp the place, by ioyning both the Prophet and Apostles wordes together, vpon which we haue stand so longe.* 1.19 Thus that good author writeth. Ipse enim quasi ignis conflans & peccators exurens, Ignis enim in conspectu eius arde∣bit & in circuitu eius tempestas valida. Hoc igne consumū∣tur lignum, foenum, stipula. Nec solum erit quasi ignis, sed etiam quasi herba fullonum, qua vestes nimium sordibus infectae lauantur. Porro his qui grauiter peccauerunt erit

ignis conflans & exurens: illis vero qui leuia peccata com∣miserunt erit herba fullonum. Hinc per Isaiam dicitur, si abluerit dominus. &c. Qui enim habent sordes leuium pec∣catorum spiritu iudicij purgantur: qui vero sanguinem ha∣bent, hoc est grauioribus peccatis infecti sunt, spiritu ardo∣ris exurentur & purgabuntur. Et sedebit conflans & emun∣dans argentum, & colabit eos quasi aurum & argentum, hoc est intellectum & colloquium: vt quicquid mixtum est stanno vel plumbo, camino domini exuratur: & quod pu∣rum aurum est & argentum remaneat. Et purgabit filios Le∣ui: In filijs Leui omnem sacerdotalem ordinē intelligimus, a quibus iudicium incipiet, quia scriptum est: tempus est vt iudicium incipiat a domo dei:* 1.20 & alibi: à sanctuario meo in∣cipite. Si autem sacerdos flammis purgandus est & colan∣dus, quid de caeteris dicendum est, quos nullum commen∣dat priuilegium sanctitatis? These golden wordes haue this sense. He shall come as the goldesmithes fire, burning sinners. For in his sight a flame shall rise, and a mighty tempest rounde about him: by which fire, our woodde, hay, and stooble, shall be wasted and worne away. VVith that, he shall be like the clensers herbe, whereby garments very much stained be purged. To all those that haue greuously offended, he wil be a burning and mel∣ting fire: but to the light sinners, he shall be as the washers herbe. VVhich difference the prophet Esay noteth thus: If our Lorde wipe away the filthe of the daughters of Syon,* 1.21 and bloude from the middest of Israel, in the spirite of iudge∣ment and fire. For such as haue onely the spottes of veniall sinnes, they may be amended by the spirite of iudgement, but men of bloude, to witte the more greuous offenders, must be tried by fire. And he shall sit casting and purifying siluer, and shall purge men as golde and siluer be purified: that is to say our thoughtes, understanding, and wordes, from impurity and vn∣cleannesse,* 1.22 as from pewter and leade, by Gods fornace shall ex∣actly be purged: and nothing shall be left but as pure as golde and fine siluer. And he shal purge the sonnes of Leui: that is the ordre of priesthood, where this heuy iudgement shall first begin. For so it is writtē. Time is now, that iudgemēt begin at the house of God: and againe: Begin at my sanctuary. If the priest must

be purged and fined, what shall we deme of other, whome priui∣lege of holy ordre doth not commende or helpe? thus farre goeth the author in conference of diuerse scriptures. VVho, with the rest of al the holy fathers that compassed their senses within the vnity of Christes Church, hath founde by euident testimony of sundry scriptures, the paines of purgatory: which the busy heades of our time by vaine bragging of scriptures, in singular arrogan∣cy of their owne wittes, can neuer finde.

4 Last of all here is vaunt made of the testimony of Remigius, as though he were a new author, and perhaps M. Allen in his notes, founde him so, but it is nothing else but the saying of Ieronym almost word for word vppon 3. Ma∣lach, 3. which before we haue shewed sufficiently to be mēt of the iudgement that Christ should exercise by his do∣ctrine, at his first comming, and nothing at all pertayning to purgatory. And therefore these golden words (as you cal them M. Allen) haue a leaden exposition, when they be drawne from the preaching of the Gospell, to the maynte∣nance of purgatory.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Homil. 12.
• * 1.2

  Basil. Cap. penult. de Spiritu san∣cto.
• * 1.3

  Vincēt lyr.
• * 1.4

  De fide & operibus Cap. 16.
• * 1.5

  Ench. Cap. 67. & 68.
• * 1.6

  Ench. Cap. 69.
• * 1.7

  This cleark∣ly argumēt our English apologie vrgeth.
• * 1.8

  Lib. 21. de Ciuit. 26.
• * 1.9

  Cap. 16.
• * 1.10

  Matth. 19.
• * 1.11

  Cap. 24. lib. 21.
• * 1.12

  Vide quaest. 8. ad Dulci∣tium.
• * 1.13

  Cap. 110.
• * 1.14

  Serm. 4. de sanctis.
• * 1.15

  De haeres. ad quod 43.
• * 1.16

  In Cap. 11. Prouerb.
• * 1.17

  Super. 3. Cap. 1. ad Cor.
• * 1.18

  Super. ca. 3. Malach.
• * 1.19

  In 3. cap. Malach.
• * 1.20

  1. Petri. 4.
• * 1.21

  Cap. 4.
• * 1.22

  I call stannū peuter, mo∣ued by the circumstāce of the let∣ter.

  1. Pet. 4.