A retentiue, to stay good Christians, in true faith and religion, against the motiues of Richard Bristow Also a discouerie of the daungerous rocke of the popish Church, commended by Nicholas Sander D. of Diuinitie. Done by VVilliam Fulke Doctor of diuinitie, and Maister of Pembroke hall in Cambridge.
Fulke, William, 1538-1589.
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A RETENTIVE TO STAY GOOD CHRI∣STIANS IN THE TRVETH OF THE GOSPELL, WRITTEN BY W Fulke against the Motiues of R. Bristow, and by him directed to his friends of the Popish Church.

AMong such English papistes, as haue written within these twen∣tie yeares, against the religion of God nowe mainteyned by publike authoritie in this Re∣alme, some haue shewed greate witte, some muche readinge, some flowing eloquence, some all these indifferently: but a∣mong them all, none hath shewed lesse witte, learning, or good vtterance, then this Richard Bristow. So much the more doe I meruell, when I heare that many Pa∣pistes make so great accompt of his witlesse and sense∣lesse writinges. But it fareth with them, as with litle children, to whome newe trifles seeme alwayes most worthy to be played with al. And verily I had thought of all other, least to haue delt against this peuish pra∣ter, both because he bringeth no newe matter, but such as in other of his cote, was with more coullor of trueth set foorth before, and also for that I had alreadie made Page  2 aunswere to Ryshtons challenge, which as I take it, is that table of the Church, which Bristowe confesseth to conteine all his demaundes, whiche demaundes are almost all conteined in his motiues. But my frien∣des requiring mee not onely to aunswere this, but all other writinges also of the papistes, what soeuer they haue set foorth in the englishe tongue since the happie raigne of our soueraigne Ladie, I haue condescended to confute euen that which deserueth no confutation, and somewhat the rather, because Bristow would haue this alone to bee a sufficient motiue vnto poperie, that wee hauing nothing to gainesay most of their popish bookes, haue not dared, (I vse his owne wordes) once to goe about the aunswering of most of the saide Catholikes bookes. But are faine to get them forbidden by proclamation, althoughe ourselues haue prouoked confidently the Catholikes to write them. Wher∣vppon also he noteth that Iewels challenge is turned into proclamations, how rightly or truly, he that hath but halfe an eye may see. His preface to the reader, con∣teining neuer an argument or motiue which is not re∣peated either in the treatise it self of motiues, or in the demaundes, I will passe ouer, and come to the firste motiue, gathering the principall contentes out of his owne table, as I haue done with the rest.

Name of Catholikes. The verie name of Catholikes a cer∣taine marke of right Catholikes. Iewel vnwars testifieth the Ro∣mane * religion to be Catholik. Larence Hūfris Troian horse, his pseudocatholic. Luthers consciens the Catholike Church to be against him. Pontaus erred not whose historie Humfrey him∣selfe vnawars confirmeth. For Catholikes (saith he) were pre∣sent as lookers on and earnest defenders. What then but none such were moderators saue onely lay Lordes and vnlearned heretikes. ergo.

The first motiue is the 6. demaunde. In whiche he woulde proue the verie name of Catholikes, to whō * soeuer it is giuen, to be a certain marke of right Catho∣likes, Page  3 to be knowen as readely, easely, and certainely by that name, as such a citie is knowne by the name of London, and such a countrie by the name of England. If euer he learned any logike at Oxforde, he left it be∣hinde him, or else lost it by the way when hee ranne o∣uer the sea. For if all thinges may bee knowen by the name whereby they are cōmonly called, nothing bea∣reth a false name, all Idoles are true gods and saintes, al deade carcales be liuing men. Yea all heretikes which are commonly called Christians in respecte of Iewes & Turkes, be true Christians. But we must bring him a companie of men, commonly knowne by the name of Catholikes, which proued heretikes. Forsooth the Arrians among themselues were commonly called bv the name of Catholikes and so reputed and taken, when the true Catholikes were called homousians and heretikes, yea all heretikes among the Pagans were cō∣monly knowen by the name of Christians, whiche thinke is as glorious a name as the name of Catholikes. Yet Augustine (saith ee) maketh much of the name of Catholikes. Cont. ••. Fund. c. 4. Tnet me postremò, &c. Last of all the verie name of the Catholike Church doeth holde me, which not without cause, amongest so many heresies, this Church alone hath so obteined, that whereas all heretikes would haue themselues to be called Catholikes, yet to a straunger which asketh where men meete at the Catholike Church, none of the he∣retikes dare shewe either their minster or house. But let vs see howe Augustine and Bristow agree. Augustine maketh this name, the last motiue, Bristowe the first. Augustine ioyneth it with many thinges, Bristowe maketh it alone to be a sufficient motiue.

Augustine in the nexte sen∣tence after confesseth the playne demonstration of the trueth, wheresoeuer it may be shewed, to bee preferred before al those motiues of Vniuersalitie, miracles, con∣sente, succession and name of Catholikes, by which he saith that he might be helde in the Catholke Churche, although he grounded no argument vppon that wise∣dome, which the Maniches would not acknowledge to Page  4 be in the catholike church, his words are these: Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat, sola perso∣nat veritatiae pollicitatio que quidens sutam manifesta monstra∣tur, vt in dubium venire non possit, praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in Catholica tenor. Among you Maniches (saith he) where there is none of these thinges whiche might allure and hold me, the onely promisle of trueth doth sounde, whith trueth if it be shewed so manifeste that it cānot come in doubt, it is to be preferred before al those things, by which I am helde in the Catholike Church.
This is Augustines iudgement of such simple motiues, which with the trueth, may helpe to confirme it, but are not worth a straw when they are alledged a∣gainst the truth. Wherfore seing we make so plaine de∣monstration of the trueth out of Gods word, that no mā can doubt of it, but such as will followe the bare name of Catholike, contrarie to the Catholike doctrine of the scriptures: against all such vaine motiues, wee may be bolde to oppose the trueth it selfe. What a mocke∣rie is this that hee saith? that aneretike in Germanie, being asked where the Catholike Church is, will point to •••• popish Church. Admit this to be so, doth this proue the Massing Church to bee the Catholike Church? In France if you aske a Papist which is ye reformed Church? he will point you to the place where the congregation of true Christians vse to assemble. Doth the Papist ther∣fore acknowledge, the Church of protestantes to bee in deede the reformed Churche? I hee doe not, the name of Catholikes proueth no more on the one syde, thē the name of reformed Christians on the other side, that either is such in deede as of the vulgare and igno∣rant people they are called. But why are Protestantes & all hereikes desirous to be called Catholikes? but that they which in deede haue the name, are also in deede euermore true Catho∣likes, and so the name alone sufficient to moue any man. Who euer heard such an asse baye? as though there were no difference, whether they haue the name rightfully or wrongfully, truely or falsely. In all the Easte Church, Page  5 who are called Catholikes, but the Grecians? Which for many hundreth yeares, haue bene separated from the Communion of the Latines, and of them are compted for heretikes and Schimatikes. But Augustine de vera rel. Cap. 7. writeth more plainly for the name of Catho∣like. Tenenda est nobis Christiana &c. Wee muste holde the Christian religion, and the companie of that Church, which is Catholike and called Catholike, not onely of her owne but also of her enemies. For will they nill they, the heretikes also and Schis∣matikes them selues, when they talke not with their own, but with strangers, they call the Catholike Church nothing but the Catho∣like Church. For they can not else bee vnderstanded, excepte they discerne her by that name, by which shee is called of the whole world. This therefore (quoth Bristow) is proued, they to be Catholikes that Catholikes are called When as Augustine saith, we must hold yt church which both is catholike, & is so called. Bristowe the Papist, is called by the name of a Cittie in England, theresore Bristowe the Papist is in deede a citie in England. This therefore is proued, that to bee Bristow that Bristow is called. But how pro∣ueth he, that they be called Catholikes? The worlde forsooth beareth them witnesse. For beside some igno∣rant fellowe in Germanie, that calleth them so, or ra∣ther not meaning to brable in the streat. yealdeth to that tearme, not because hee thinketh them to bee so, but because he knoweth the Papist which asketh for the Catholike Church, seeketh not the Catholike Church in deed, but the Popish Church falsely called Catholike: beside I say some tankarde bearer boye or gyrle, that hath mde such a unswere to Bristowe as he trauelled in Germanie, he asketh when in printed bookes they bee called Catholikes, whether the reader knoweth not who is meaned? Yes verily, if the bookes bee written by pa∣pistes o such as take neither part. But he would now further why we mke name thē, & call them Cacolikes or Cartholikes. I suppose whosoeuer mocketh them, it is because they falsely surpe that name, which they are not wothie to beare, and not because they bee such, Page  6 and the name euill: yet againe he asketh why Luther i Germanie did cause the Creede to be turned. I beleeue the Chri∣stian Church, and not, I beleeue the Catholike Church. Mine an∣swere is, I beleeue that Bristowe belyeth Luther, for any such change of the creede, although he might well expoūd the true Catholike Church by the name of the true Christian Church. But Iewel confirmeth the name of Catholike to be theirs, or els what meaneth he to enti∣tle his replie, Against the Romane religion which of late hath ben accompted Catholike. Alas poore Bristow, hast thou no bet∣ter reason to proue the Popish Church to be Catholike, but that Iewel saith it hath bene accompted Catholike, and proueth that it hath ben falsely accompted so? Yes sir, not he only, but also Pope Humfrey in his Legend of sains Iewel, confesseth vs to be Catholikes, where he saith that Ponta∣cus erred, when he wrot that onely lay men neither learned nor Catholikes, were moderators in the disputation at Westminster. Why Bristow, are you not ashamed to take the name of the lorde your god the Pope in vaine? And because Pontacus complaineth that catholikes were not mode∣rators, doth Humfrey therefore acknowledge papistes to be Catholikes? yea forsooth, he doth so, and also cō∣firmeth the storie of Pontacus, when he saith, Catholikes were present, but in the next worde he expoundeth what catholikes, namely papistes. And som of thē were also moderators, at the least wise one, namely D. Heath then occupying the place of the Bishop of Yorke, therefore not onely lay Lords, & vnlearned heretiks, as this lewd losel and vnlearned dogbolt & trayterous papist (I am bold with him, because he is so malepert with the lear∣ned & godly nobilitie of England) most slaunderously and maliciously affirmeth were only moderators of that disputation, but some of ye Popish faction were not on∣ly present but presidents of that action, beside all the rest of the popish prelates, which then were of the Par∣liament, for information whereof that conference was appointed. But Humfrey saith moreouer, that the chiefe cause of all euils, and as it were the Troian horse with∣in Page  7 the walles of the Church, hath beene hitherto a Ca∣tholike defection from the holy scripture, and especial∣ly your papistrie. Therefore (saith Bristow) hee ac∣knowledgeth vs to be Catholikes. In deed you be ca∣tholike (that is to say vniuersal reuolters frō ye holy scriptures) if that title please you, reioyce of it & spare not. You be Catholike heretiks, that is, heretikes not in one or two articles of religion, but in all in as much as you denie the office of Christe vpon which is grounded all Christiaitie. The name of Catholike of it selfe is in∣different to good and euil, euen as the name of vni∣uersall is: therefore in our Creede we say not simplie, I beleeue the Catholike Church, but the holy Catholike Church. And therefore D Humfrey in calling you pseu∣docatholici, false Catholikes, sheweth what Catholikes he meaneth you to be, not members of the holy Catho∣like Church of godly Christiss, but pillers of the false and counterfeit Church of malignant herenkes, And whereas you say, you haue hearde Humfrey in his fond and vnlearned lectures at Oxford call them pseudocatholii, home Faustus the Maniche did entwite for honouring the memorie of Martyrs, first you take vpon you like the sowe to entwite Minerua as it is in ye latine prouerb, which might better be borne withall, in a man of such learning and arte as you shew, if you did not also slander & belie him, as the diuell doth all the saintes of God. For although I neuer heard any of his lecturs: yet I dare affirme, he ne∣uer accompted Augustine and •••• godly Catholiks of his time for false Catholikes, although hee coulde not allowe of all that Augustine hath written and main∣teyned. Wherefore it is cleare hee calleth not Augu∣stine and the Catholikes of his time, but you Papistes of our time, false Catholikes: and shewed that to you did truly agree, that which Faustus did falsely charge ye true Catholikes with all, yt is, the turning of Idols into Martirs. For Faustus did slander, & not as you trāslateit, onely entwite the true Catholikes for worshipping the Martirs, as •••• pagans worshipped their Idols. Calumniat••∣nobisPage  8Faustus &c.
Faustus doth slander vs (saith Augu∣stine) Againe: Non tā me mouetut hic Calumniae respondeam &c. He doth not so much moue me that I should here answere his slander, as that I might shew, yt Faustus him selfe through desire of slandering, would swarue euen from the vanities of Maniche.
The laste authorite for the name of Catholike in the 6. demaund is the words of a seruing man belike, that sayd to one M. Culpe∣per which died at Paris, lying on his deth bed, In any case renounce the Catholike faith, which whether it were said so, or howsoeuer it were ment, I thinke the partie that so spake, had as much wisedome as Bristow sheweth wit, in alledging his saying for proofe of the name of Ca∣tholikes, to be rightly giuen to them. The fantasticall trance of yt same gentleman which saw his good angel gloriously appearing to him, & assuring him that hee was in the right way, which his gostly father could not do, although it were not forged, yet can make no pre∣iudice against the vndoubted word of God, which con∣demneth that way of papistrie, for the broad waye that leadeth to destruction. You haue heard what in∣uincible reasons Bristow imagineth yt he hath brought to proue the papistes to be right Catholikes. First be∣cause they call themselues so. Secondly because igno∣rant persons giue them that name. And last of all be∣cause some learned men call thē false Catholikes, coun∣terfeit Catholikes, Catholike heretiks. But as the Iudge of the conference that was betwene the true Catholiks & the Donatistes said to the Donatistes, whē they chal∣lenged vnto thē the name of Catholikes, so answere I to the papistes,
illos quano magis se esse Catholicos dicerent, tanto magis iam causā ipsam remotis nugarum interposuionibus agere debere, in qua probare possent se potius esse Catholicos, that the more they vant themselues to be Catholiks, yt more they ought all delayes being remoued, now to go to the cause it selfe, in which they might proue that they are Catholikes in deede, rather then we.

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The second motiue is the seauenth demaunde.

Name of Heretikes, that very name a certayne marke of very * Heretikes. Luthers consciens his side to be Heretikes.

If the very name of Heretikes were a certayne marke of Heretikes, the Christians in the Apostles time * should bee verye Heretikes, for they were so called. yea (sayth Bristow) of the blind and vnbeleuing Iewes, and so are we called by the blind and vnbeleeuing Pa∣pistes: so were all true Catholikes alwayes by al Here∣tikes, which is so strange to Bristow, that he would haue vs bring an Example of any Christians that euer called any people Heretikes, whiche prooued not Heretikes indeede. You may see his reading is very great, whiche thinketh no exception may be brought out of any Hi∣storie, or writings of the Fathers, for this matter. I wyll sende him to that vnperfecte worke vpon S. Mathewes Gospell, written by an Arriane, yet among Papists com∣monly taken for Chrysostom, wherein the Author cal∣leth and counteth the true Christians Heretikes, which defendeth the Godhead of the Father, the Sonne, and the holy Ghost to be equall, in Cap. 23. Hom. 45. Conse∣quenter & aercticis dicitur hoc. consequently this is said to the Heretikes. And least you should doubt whome he calleth Heretikes, it followeth immediately:

Quando e∣nim vides haereticos tres per omnia aequales dicentes eiusdem es∣se substantiae, eiusdem esse authoritatis, sine principio omnes hos aliqua parte distantes a se, non mireris: implent enim mensuram patrum suorum Gentilium, quoniam & illi similiter multos deos colebant. For when thou seest the Heretikes, saying, that there be three in al things equal of the same substance, and of the same authoritie, all these being without be∣ginning, yet differing in some respect one from ano∣ther, maruell not: for they fulfill the measure of theyr fathers the heathen men, for they did likewise worship many Gods.
By this one example in stead of many, it is cleere, that the Arrians did as commonly call the true Page  10 Christians heretikes, as the true Christiās called thē so. But if Bristow cauil, yt the Arrians were not Christians. I answere, they were as good Christians as the Papistes, who only almost cal vs heretiks, euen as we do likewise cal them. And it were a shamelesse begging of the prin∣ciple, to require that we shuld accompt Papists for true Christians, whē the question is whether they be heretiks or no. But it is a fine quarel yt he piketh against our trā∣slations of the Byble, where we cal Hereticum a man that is author of Sectes, as though we feared to call hym an Heretike, least men should thinke the Apostle spake a∣gainst vs. Nay Bristow, thei yt so trāslate, would haue En∣glishmen to vnderstand when S. Paule calleth an Here∣tike, that they mighte acknowledge the Pope to be an Archheretike, bycause he is an author of so many Sects, contrary to the word of God. Neyther did ye Author of the Apollogie meane, that men should lesse auoide He∣resies, accounted by S. Paul among ye works of the flesh. Gala. 5. where he alledged that S. Paules doctrine was called Heresie of the Iewes, Act. 24. or that they should not thinke ill of thē, which are adiudged Heretikes by true Christians, but that they should no more regard yt slanderous and malitious rayling of the Papistes, than the Apostles did of the Iews, who were not much worse thā the Papists, & in some things were more tollerable. Last of all, where Luther cōfesseth, that the members of the true Church were commonly called Heretikes, his conscience did not accuse him, yt his side were Heretiks, for he was able to put a difference betwene him that by heretiks is called an Heretike, and him yt is so in deede, although Bristow, eyther for his blockish wit can not, or for his spitefull malice will not conceyue it.

The third motiue is the eyght Demaunde.

Name of Protestantes, Nicolaites, Papists, a name of late put on vs by Heretikes. Rechabites, Christians, and Catholikes are all * one. S. Hieroms motiue name, as of Protestantes, Homousians: Name of Franciscanes. &c.

Page  11 Whosoeuer in respect of ye doctrine which they pro∣fesse * (saith Bristow) haue a new name made of some mās name, or otherwise taken up, wherby they terme them∣selues, and are cōmonly termed and knowen thereby, vndoubtedly are heretiques. Therefore Lutherans, Cal∣uinistes, Precisians, Puritanes, vnspotted brethren are heretiques, euen as the Nicolaitanes were. I deny ye con∣clusion. For there are none of vs that terme our selues Lutheranes, Caluinistes, Precisianes, Puritanes, vnspotted brethren &c. The name of Protestants, if any doe vse, is not in respect of the doctrine wee professe, but in re∣spect of a protestation made against the decree of Spire in Germanie. Neither is it otherwise acknowledged of vs, then the name of Nazatites, was of the Apostles, the names of Homousians, Caesarians, & Caecilianists, was of the Christians in the time of the heresies of Arrius & Macedonius, Eunomius, Donatus &c. Paule was accused by Tertullus Act. 24. to be a chiefe Capteine of the he∣resie of the Nazarites, whereunto he answered: This confesse, that according to that way which they call he∣resie, doe I worship the God of my Fathers. That here∣tique which did write the vnperfect worke vpon S. Mat∣thewes Gospel, which goeth vnder the name of S. Chry∣sostome, in Cap.4. Hom. 48. thus writeth of •••• true Chri∣stians. Hęresis Homoousianorum, nō solùm Christi ecclsiae aduer∣satur, sed & omnibus haeresibus non similiter sapientibus. The heresie of the Homousians, is not only aduersarie to the Church of Christ, but also to all other heresies that bee not of their minde. Here note, that the Arrians did giue a newe name to the true Christians, in respect of their doctrine wherof they were not ashamed. For Homousi∣ans signifieth them, that acknowledged the Father and the Sonne to be of the same substance. And ouer this note also: that the Arrian heretique did brag as much of the name of the Church then, as the Popish heretiques do nowe. Basil in his Epist. 73. testifieth the same of the Arrians.

Cęterum & Nicaenam fidem calumniantur, nósque Homousiastas probrosè vocant, propterea quod in ea fide fil umPage  12Dei vnigenitū cum Deo ac patre Homousion confitemur. More∣ouer, they slaunder the faith of the Nicen Counsel, and call vs reprochfully Homoousians, bycause that in that fayth we confesse the onely begotten sonne of God to be of the same substance with the Father.

But Bristow sayth, it is a rule that the ancient Fathers alwayes gaue the people to knowe Heretikes thereby if they had any such name.

Hieronyme Aduers. Lucife∣riā. sayth, Sicubi audieris, &c. If any where thou heare, thē which are sayd to be of Christ, to be tearmed not of our Lorde Iesus Christe, but of some other, as Massionites, Valentinians, Montenses, Camputes, knowe thou, that they are not the Church of Christ, but the Sinagog of Antichrist.
But he belyeth Hierome, for he giueth not the name only as a sufficiēt note, but before the words by Bristow cited, he writeth,
In illa esse ecclesia permanen∣dum, quae ab apostolis fundata, vs{que} ad diem hanc durat. We must tarie in that Church, which being founded by the Apostles, continueth vnto this day. And immediately after Bristowes pretended rule. Ex hoc enim ipso quod po∣stea constituti sunt, eos se esse iudicant, quos futuros apostolus prae∣nunciauit. For euen by this, that they are set afterward, they shewe themselues to be the same, whome the A∣postle foreshewed to come.
By these wordes it is eui∣dent, that Hieronymes rule runneth not onely vppon the name, howsoeuer it beginneth, but of the late spring of Heretikes, whose doctrine being not founded by the Apostles hath a later beginning after them. The names of Franciscanes, Dominicanes, Benedictines &c. whiche certayne sects of Papistes giue vnto themselues, Bristow sayth, they haue not for any speciall doctrine brought in by their Patrones, and therefore they be no names of Heretikes. But I reply, that beside that diuers of these ectes distent in poyntes of doctrine, as the Do∣minicanes and Franciscanes aboute Originall sine. And to omitte the uelphes and Gibellines, dissenting about the authoritie of the Pope and the Emperour, the greatest question in Popery, euen those sectes of Bene∣dictines, Page  13 Augustines, Dominicanes &c. did al take their names, eyther of that man, or that order, whiche they held to be the perfection of Religion, consisting not in keeping the commaundementes of God, as Bristowe like a wyse man affirmeth, whiche all Christian men ought to endeuour, but in keeping the traditions and constitutions of men, standing in garments, in meates, in gesture, in ceremonies, & outward obseruatiōs. wher∣fore they can not so lightly be acquitted of Heresie, e∣uen by Hieronymies owne rule, and last of all by the example of the name of Rechabites, who had their name of their family, and not of any Sect in perfection. The name of Papists (saith Bristow) is lately put vpō vs by heretiks, the like say we of the names of Lutheranes, &c. put vpon vs by them. The saying of Augustine, De vtilitate credendi, Cap. 7. toucheth vs not, that Heretikes dare not denye their names by whiche they are called, for we vtterly denye all names by which we are called, in respect of our Religion, to be drawen from men, and aunswere onely to the name of Christians. And as for the name of Catholikes, which Bristow maketh all one with the name of Christians, being added to the name of Christians to distinguish true Christians from He∣retikes, which are counterfet Christians, we do embrace it: but if from this righte meaning of the name, it bee drawen to signifye a people, whiche by only glorying in that name, despise al true Christianitie grounded vp∣pon the holy and diuine Scriptures, as Bristow seemeth to make it, then is it no better thā a name of Heretikes, and so the name of Catholikes, boasted of by them that refuse to be members of ye holy Catholike Church, turneth to their owne reproch, euen as the name of the Apostolikes was to them, whiche bragged of the name of the Apostles, but were indeed no true followers of ye Apostles, no more than the Papistes be true Catholikes.

In the eyght Demaund, he would know why we call them not Gregorians, or Leonians, of some one Pope, but Papists of the generall name of the Pope. I answer, Page  14 bicause they mainteine not one heresie only of one mā, but a general heresie and Apostasie from Christ, wherof the Pope is ye head, whom no more foolishly then falsly Bristowe saith to haue bene alwayes since the Apostles time. If he presse vs, that we make not dangerous, to ac∣knowledge the name of Protestants, I confesse, yt when nothing is vnderstod by that name, but men which pro∣fesse that true doctrine which we doe, we greatly striue not for the name. S. Paul him selfe openly acknowled∣ged yt he was a Phause, when nothing was vnderstood by the name but one that beleeued the resurrection of the dead, although yt terme of Pharisee was otherwise the name of a sect of heretiques, which mainteined ma∣ny damnable errours, from which the Apostle was most free. Last of all Augustine in Breui. Coll. cum Donatist. Coll 3. dici counteth all these three motiues of the name of Catholoques. Heretiques, and Protestants, to be but dilatorie shifts of the Heretiques, not sound arguments of the Christian Catholiques. Vbi cognitor cùm dixisset, hoc Catholii probare debebuat, ortus est iterù moratorius conflictus, de Catholico nomine & Donatistarum & Caecilianistaris. When the Iudge or Commissioner had said: This the Catho∣liques ought to proue: there arose againe a dilatorie conflict about the name of Catholique, and of the Do∣natistes, and of the Caecilianistes. The Donatistes which were heretiques, chalenged to them selues the name of Catholiques, as the Papistes do against vs, the true Chri∣stians they called Heretiques and Caecilianistes, as the Papistes call vs. Heretiques, Protestants. Lutherans, &c. but these were but dilatorie deuises of Heretiques, to a∣uoyd the true trial, which as the Catholikes in the fore∣named conference confessed, was onely by ye Scriptures.

The 4. motiue is the 38. demaund.

Olde heresies. Arrians againe aliue in Protestantes. Proti∣stants be Pelagians, in denying Baptisme to be necessarie for the * saluation of Infants. Her etiques are not Christians.

Page  15 Whatsoeuer was heresie in times past (saith Bristow) * is heresie now also, some opinions holden by the Pro∣testants, were heresie in times past, Ergo, they be heresies now also, so Protestants be Heretiques, and no Christi∣an, but almost Apostataes. But I deny that any opinion holden by vs, was euer Heresie. Yes saith Bristow, the denying of prayer and oblation for the dead was ac∣counted heresie in Arius, both by Epiphanius and Au∣gustinus. True it is, they both following the errour of their times, account it for an errour in Arius, but it doth not followe, that bicause they accounted it so, that it was so in deed, seing neither of them both doth proue it to be an errour by the authoritie of the holy Scrip∣tures, but by the corrupt vsage of their Churches, which had turned thankesgiuing for the dead, into prayers and oblation for the dead And yet the same Epiphanius de∣nyeth fasting and almes to bee profitable to the dead, wherefore the Papistes do now hold the contrarie. Con∣tra Melchisedec sumus Haer. 53. Hee accounteth the hauing of the images of Christ and the Apostles, one of the he∣resies of the Gnostikes, Haer. 27. & many such like things which the Papistes defend for Catholike. The like doth Augustine, wherefore let Bristow aduise him selfe whe∣ther it be a good argument. Epiphanius and Augustine accounted prayer for the dead to be an errour, Ergo, it was an heresie in deede. For an other example of old heresies by vs recyted he bringeth in, That cruell heresie of theirs, against the necessitie of childrens baptisme, wherin they agree with the Pelagians, through which they suffer many thou∣sand poore soules to perish, which can not helpe them selues, while they promise them both life euerlasting, and the kingdome of hea∣uen without baptisme, whereas the Pelagians promised life euer∣lasting only. Who would thinke, that this slaunderous he∣retique had liued so long in England as hee did before he became fugitiue, which lyeth so impudētly without all colour or shewe of trueth? Was there euer any of vs heard to preach of baptisme, as not necessarie for infāts, if they might obteine it according to the institution of Page  16 Christ. But contrariwise, that it is a cruell errour of the Papists, which condēneth infants, who being preuented by death, can not obteyne the outward Sacrament: yet hath this error Augustine and Cypriane to vpholde it. But if Augustine and Cypriane neuer erred, no not a∣bout the doctrine of the Sacramentes, then let their au∣thoritie defend the Papists. But when Cypriane denyed the Baptisme of Heretikes to be any thing auayleable, how many thousand soules both of yong and olde dyd he condemne? And whē Augustine with Pope Innocent holdeth the communion to be as necessarie for the sal∣uation of Infants as Baptisme: how many hūdred thou∣sand soules doth he condemne, or the Papistes destroy, which denye the communiō vnto them? Cyprian lib. 1. Epi. 6. Magno. Augustin. Contra duas Epist. Pelagi. lib. 2. Cap. 4. where he accuseth the Pelagians, as well for affir∣ming the Communion not to be necessarie for Infants, as for houlding, that Baptisme was not needefull for them.

In the 38. Demaunde he chargeth vs with denying prescript fasting dayes, which is falle, when they be pre∣scribed by the Churche of God, and not vsurped of su∣perstition and opinion of merite.

He chargeth vs further with denying of Free Will, and quoteth in the margent August Tom. 6. De fide cō∣tra Manichaeus, Cap. 9 & 10. where in deede Augustine a∣gainst the Manichees affirmeth the Free Will of man, but in his retractations he sheweth, that euen then hee vnderstoode it of the state of Man before his fall, and therefore the Pelagians, whiche were maynteyners of Free Will to remayne in man since the fall of Adam, did slaunderouslie vsurp those his sayings against him and the truth, euen as the Papists do now.

Cùm autem de libera voluntate rectè faciendi loquimur, de illa scilicet in quae homo factus est loquimur. Ecce tam longè antequam Pelagiana haeresis extitisse••sic disputanimus: velut iam contra illos disputa∣remus. Whensoeuer we speake of the Free Will of man to do well, we speake of that Will, in whiche man was made.
Page  17 Behold so long before the Pelagian heresie arose, we haue disputed euē so, as though we had disputed against them. Retract. lib. 1. cap. 9. Now iudge whether if Papistes or we, be more like to the Pelagians. He chargeth vs moreouer, to hold against the merite of single life, quo∣ting Aug. haer. 82. with Iouiaian, which is false, for as Au∣gustine vnderstandeth by merite worthines or excel∣lency, we acknowledge that the state of virginitie is more excellent then of matrimony, in such respects as the Apostle preferreth it. 1. Cor. 7.

Last of all he chargeth vs, with holding against the vowe of single life, quoting Aug. Retract lib. 2. c. 22. where there is no word of any vowe, and much lesse of vowing a single life, in them that can not liue an honest & chast life without mariage. There is mention of certaine san∣ctimoniales holy and deuout women, of whose chastity was no suspition, which leauing their purpose of virgini∣tie, were perswaded by Iouinian to marie. Not we there∣fore, haue reuiued any old heresie, but the Papists haue continued many old errors, reuiued many old heresies, of the Pharises, P•••gians, Anthropomorphites, & ad∣ded many new of their owne, such as were neuer he••d of in the primitiue Church, for six hundred yeares after Christ, as hath often bene shewed at large.

The 4. and 5. motiues are included in the 10. demaund.

Miracles dogmatica••, a marke of true doctrine for the sa∣crifice * of the Masse, for purgatory. Deuills expelled with a Masse by a Priest of S. Augustines, who was of our religion. S. Bede of our religion. Masse sayd for the dead oftentimes to redemption both of body and soule. The saerament of the al∣tare sticked by the Iewes bleedeth. Mrkes and mnaste∣ries. Visions for our religion. An Englishe woman miracu∣lously cured of late by the blessed sacrament. Holy water. Masse confirmed by miracles in Afrike, Englande and Bra∣bant.

Page  18 Bristow diuideth miracles into dogmaticall and per∣sonall. * Of the first sort he setteth this conclusion. VVho∣soeuer haue at any time set them selues against, any doctrine confirmed by miracle, they haue bene against the truth. There can to this no instans be giuen: our doctrine which they resist hath bene confirmed by miracles, therefore plaine it is that they are enemies of the truth.

Doe you heare this shameles beast, say, there can be no instans giuen against his proposition? When ye Lord himselfe giueth an expresse law, against a false prophet, which sheweth signes or miracles. Deut. 13. Did not Ian∣nes and Iambres whch resisted moses, worke miracles: doth not our Sauiour Christ prophecy that many false christes and false prophets should arise and worke such great signes and miracles, as (if it were possible, the ve∣ry elect should be deceiued. Matth. 24. Doth not S. Paule prophecy, that the comming of Antichrist shalbe accor∣ding to the working of Satan, in all power and lying signes and miracles, and therefore no maruel if Bristow bragge, that he can fill whole volumes with them? But miracles are not the triall, but the confirmation of do∣ctrine, which must be tried onely by the Scriptures of God: without the authoritie whereof, no miracles ought to moue vs to giue credit, and much lesse any miracles may moue vs to beleue any doctrine which is against it. But yet let vs consider of such miracles as Bristow re∣hearseth.

First for the sacrifice of the Masse, and for purgatory. August. de ciuit. Dei lib. 22. cap. 8. writeth, that in a Ferme house of one Hesperius, was great hurt and trouble by euill spirits, which at the prayers of a certaine Priest or elder of Augustines Chutch, was staied & ceased. There is no word of deuills expelled with a Masse, or with the sacrifice of ye Masse. That which in Bristowes eare soun∣deth that way, is Perre it vnus, &c.

One went thether, he offered there the sacrifice of the body of Christ, pray∣ing with all his power, that the same vexation might ceasse:
But Augustine by offring the sacrifice of Christes Page  19 body, meaneth nothing, but ministring of the commu∣nion, as that holy action was then figuratiuely called, but yet nether the Masse, nor the sacrifice thereof, was at that time inuented, as I haue often & plentifully she∣wed els where, and namely against Heskins lib.. cap. 22. That he nameth the sacrifice of the body of Christ, it is not sufficient to proue him of Bristowes religion, greater cause haue we to chalenge him to be of our re∣ligion, when he calleth the sacrament the signe of the body of Christ, and sayth, that Christ will not giue vs that body which was borne of the virgine, and crucified &c. contra Adimant. In Ioann tract.0. cap. 12.

From Augustine he passeth to a tale reported in Bedes historie of a captiue, whose chaines were loosed at such time, as his brother which was a Monke and Priest sayd masse for him, by which reporte, Bede sayth, many were moued to pray, giue almes or offer the sacrifice of the holy oblation for the deliuerie of their frendes which were departed out of this world a sorie motiue without the autoritie of Gods word, which albeit it was credited of Bede, as diuerse other fables were, yet may we doubt of the truth of it, and although it were true that such a feate was wrought, yet it can not establish a doctrine contrarie to the holy Scriptures. And notwithstanding that Bede liuing in a corrupttime, holdeth many errors of Papistrie, yet I haue shewed against Stapletons sor∣tresse, that he holdeth not all, not many of the chiefest.

After this miracle of Bede, he beginneth the storie of our countrye woman, which hauinge plaied the har∣lot in London, and running ouer into Flanders to seeke the knaue that got her with childe, was made lame with childbearing, so that one legge was shorter then an o∣ther by more then halfe a foote, sayth Bristow. But after often shrift, and other holy exercises of Poperie, in time of a masse, she was restored to health by the sacrament of miracle. I doubt not but the masters of Bridewell (neere which place she dwelled sometime) which haue done as great cures as that, coulde haue healed her of Page  20 her lamenes, without the sacrament of miracle. In re∣hearsall of this doggetricke miracle, he interlaceth an other as monstruous a lye as this. That the pixe being stollen by a Iew, & the cakes sticked in despight among the Iewes, did bleede aboundantly, that a druncken wo∣man a Iew borne, and christned, being admonished by an Angell in a vision, restored that pixe with three hostes in it to her gostly father, from whom they were translated to S. Gudulaes church in Bruxells, where they are kept vntill this day, from the yere of our Lord 1369. which is moe then 200. yeares agoe. The like fable they haue at the Monasterie of Billets in Paris, where they haue a cruse full of the miraculous blood, which is∣sued out of the masse cake so sticked by the Iewes: which are euen as great miracles, as the blood of Hales was in England. For if the Papists durst for their credit, cō∣mit those miraculous hostes and blood vnto indifferent vewe and custodie, where no fraude might be vsed, I durst aduenture my life, (which is almost all that I haue to leese) that within lesse then two yeares, they shall either be founde to consist of a counterfait matter that is perdurable, or els they shall putrefie and rotte which they woulde beare vs in hande, haue continued more then two hundreth yeares: In the demaund and in the next motiue m̄tiō is made of miracles wrought in Inda and by Pius quintus the Pope at Rome which either are lyes, or iuggling casts of counterfeating cose∣ners. But if they or their Pope haue any such power, as they bragge of, why come they not in the face of their aduersa••es, & challenge them, as Helias did the Priests of Baal, and in open sight of their enemies shewe their mightie miracles: and not prate of wonders done in the Indes, of which they may lye, where there is none to controlle them, or wrought, among them selues, where we can udge nothing of them, but counterfeating and cosening, with which practises they haue bene taken & tied too often, to gaine any credit with any that haue any wisedom in them.

Page  21

The 6. motiue.

Miracles personall, a marke of true Doctors. S. Barnarde * of our religion with what miracles he confirmed images, churches, the reall presence, transubste atin, sacrifice of the masse, praying for the dead, praying to Saintes, and man o∣ther articles. Miracles for & by holy bread & for the signe of the crosse. The signe of the crosse worketh miracles. Excommu∣nication of Pius v to be feared, who by his prayers & signing of the crosse, did cast deuills out of fiue women.

Bristowes principle against which there can be no * instance, is this. VVhatsoeuer persons at any time since Christes ascention haue had the grace of miracles, they were the ministers of Christ, I say not alwayes iust and holy: but al∣wayes preachers of his truth: and consequently, whosoeuer set themselues against such persons they were against Christ & a∣gainst the truth. In the last chapter before, I haue brought instance, both out of the Law and the Gospell, of salse Prophets and false Christes, which should worke great miracles, and yet preach against God & Christ. Where∣fore this conclusion is vtterly false.

Bristow replieth, they are lying signes, such as were wrought by Iannes and Iambres, and shalbe wrought by Antichrist, not able to abide the triall, so say I of all Po∣pish miracles, either they are fayned, or ls they are counterfaited, or if any wonderous thing be done, it is according to the working of Satan as the Apostle tea∣cheth vs. 2. Thess. 2. So did Marcus the hereticke make straunge appearaunces in the sacrement of Christes blood, as witnesseth Iren. cus lib. 1. cap. 9. Tertullian affir∣meth, the holy Ghost the comforter to be in the M̄ta∣nistes, by acknowledging of the promised graces lib de amma cap. de inferis. Where also he maketh mention of prayer for the dead confirmed by a miracle among the Montanists. Augustine speaketh of Paulus & Donatus, that wrought miracles to confirme the heresie of the Donatistes. de vnitat. eccles. Sozmenus lib. 1. cap. 14 repor∣teth Page  22 that Eutychianus a Nouatian heretike, was nota∣ble in working of miracles. Wherfore if the fables writ∣ten of Frauncis, Dominike, Becket, &c. were true, yet are not they by such miracles proued true preachers.

But S. Bernard was of our religion sayth Bristow. In deede he maintained many of your opinions, yet not all nor the chiefest, for he beleued that a man might be sa∣ued sla fide by faith only Ep. 77. But he was an ene∣my to the Henricians which burned images, destroyed Churches and were against all such pointes of Poperie, as the title mentioneth: and these heretikes he ouer∣came, not only by preaching, but by miracles (sayth Bristow) as he testifieth himselfe Ep. 241. The truth (saith he) was made manifest non slum in sermone sed etiam in vir∣tute: not only by preaching but also by working as doth Bri∣stow translate, wheras he should say, not only by speech but also by power, so that of miracle there is no mentiō. Yet Godfrie the Monke, that was his discisciple, writteth of miracles wrought by breade, sanctified with the signe of the crosse. &c: But Godfries writing we holde for no Gospell. Neither know we the contrarie, but some God∣fie Gods foe, which hued long after Bernarde, might fayne those bookes in the name of one of his disciples that liued in his time, for the number of miracles re∣hearsed in them, fine passe the number of the miracles recorded by the Euangelists of our Sauiour Christ.

And that you may know from what spirite those bookes pro∣ceeded, you shall vnderstand, that the same Godfrie lib. 1. cap. 3. extolleth the wisedom of Barnard aboue all the Scriptures. Vicbatur sanè Scripturis tam liberè commode{que}, v non tam sequi illas quam praecedere crederetur, & ducere ipse quô vellet, auctorem earum ducem spiritum sequens. He vsed in deede the Scriptures so freely and fitly that he might be thought not so much to follow them, as to go before them, & to lead them whither he would, follow∣ing the spirite, the autor of them as a guide.
Againe he sayth of him. Nam & confessus est aliquando sibi meditan∣ti velorāti, sacram omnem velut subse positam & expositanPage  23apparuisse Scripturam. For he confessed sometimes while he studied or prayed, that all the holy Scripture appea∣red to him, as placed vnder him and expounded. But Bernard him selfe as appeareth by his wrytings, abhor∣red from that blasphemous confession: Againe those e∣pitaphes, which were written at his buriall, commende Bernard highly for his learning and vertue, but of mi∣racles they speake not, which they would not haue o∣mitted, if they had bene so many as this Godfrie wri∣teth.

The excommunication of Pius quintus, we feare no more then we beleue his miracle, howe soeuer that pa∣geant was deuised, which cōmeth too late to perswade vs, that the Pope can worke miracles. For it had bene more in season for Leo the 10, or Clemens the seuenth, if they or any of these had receaued such power, to haue shewed it in generall councell, or assembly of the states against Luther and his followers, then now that Anti∣christ is in so great part consumed by the spirite of the Lords mouth, to thinke to establish his throne by lying signes and wonders which fewe of the Papistes doe in their consciences thinke to be other then counterfaited and forged.

The 8. motiue is the 12. demaund.

Visions a marke of true doctrine and Doctors. Christ to be beleued for visions. S. Augustine was of our religion and*brought thereto by God. Beleuing the reall presens of Christ in the sacrament of the altare which is to be worshipped with religion, saying masse for the dead. Prayer for the dead v∣sed alwayes. S. Gregory was of our religion. Masse sayd euery day. Prayer for the dead cōfirmed by a vision seruing for our religion, prophecies for our religion. VVhy Protestants deny not all the Scriptures. Visions for our religion. The commu∣nion booke burned in a vision. The communion in a vision re∣ceaued by a blacke dogge. The seruice of Protestantes to be refrained. S. Cyprian of our religion.

Page  24 Of visions we haue the same rule, that of miracles such as are of God srue to cōfirme that doctrine which * is deliuered in the holy Scriptures. such were the visi∣ons shewed vnto the Apostles and holy men. But if any vision seemed to bringe in any doctrine that was not coneyned in the Scriptures, both the vision was to be knowen for a deuilh illusion, and the dreamer of that vision commaunded to be slayne. But how will Bristw proue, that S. Augustine was of his religion? euen by that wise argument, that he seth so often, because he held some one error common with them, although he were contrary to them in the whole substance of religi∣on. For thus he reasoneth. S. Augustine was of the same religion that his mothr Monica was, who saw in a visi∣on that he should be conuerted to the Catholike faith when he was a Manichee: But Monica was of our reli∣gion, because he beleued the reall prefence, and worshipped so that blessed sarament with religion, and making of it God him selfe.

But how proueth he that she so beleued and wor∣shipped? She knew sayth he that from the alar was mini∣s••ed & dispensed victima sancta &c. that holy sacrifice wher by was stricken out that hand writing that was again vs. Au. lib. cont. 9. ap. 13. A straunge conclusion. She acknowled∣ged the ministration of the sacrament to be a dispensati∣on or communication of the sacrifice of Christs death, which euery Protestant doth, therefore she beleued the reall presence. But how did she worship the sacrament, and make God him selfe of it? Mary (S. Augustine sayth) Ad vnm &c. To the sacramēs of whih our price, thy hand∣may de ved her soule with the bonde of faith. What word is here of worshipping, or making the sacrament God him selfe? Yes sayth Bristow: for Augustine sayth in other places, we must tye our soules to God alone, whereof religion is so named, wherefore she tying her soule to the sactament, maketh the sacrament God him selfe. A substantiall reason I promise you, by which you may as wel prou that she worshipped baptisme and made God Page  25 him selfe ofit, for there is no doubt, but vnto baptisme (which is also the sacrament of our pryce) she tyed her soule with the bande of faith, and so hath euery faithfull Protestant. For the sacraments by faith, are certaine pledges of our conunction with God through Christ. Into whose death we are ingraffed by baptisme, as we are fedde with his body and blood in the supper.

The place of Augustine is corruptly cited by Bristow, who hath cut of both the head and the foote of it, which is this.

Ad vnum Deumtendentes, & ei vni religantes an∣mas nostras, vnde religio dicta creditr, omni superstitione ca∣reamus. Hauing respect to one God and tying our soules to him onely, whereof religion is thought to be called, let vs be voyde of all superstition. For Monica had re∣spect onely to God, when she tyed her soule by faith vn∣to the seale of Gods promises.
And she was voyde of su∣perstition, when she cleaued to none other ceremonye of coniunction with God, but onely to that, which was ordeyned of God him selfe for that purpose. But howe proueth Bristow, that prayer for the deade was vsed al∣way, or that Masse was sayd for the deade. Because that in the corrupt tyme of Augustine, prayer was vsed for the deade, and in the prayers vsed at the celebration of the communion, remembraunce was made of the dead. This is a straūge kind of reasoning: that was vsed some∣time, therefore it was vsed alwayes. But how long it was vsed, and how it was taken vp, I haue shewed in myne aunswer to Allins booke of Purgatory.

Now commeth S. Gregory to be of Bristowes religi∣on. I will not deny but in many errors and superstitions Gregory agreeth with the Papistes, but yet not in all, nor in some of the chiefest. The visions he rehearseth for prayer for ye dead, if they were not fayned dreames, they were illusiōs of ye deuil, because they serue to main∣teine that doctrine, which is contrary to the Scriptures, which teach that after death followeth iudgement im∣mediatly, so that no prayers can preuaile. Heb. 9. 26. But prophecyes are for Bristowes religion. How so I praye Page  26 you? The conuersion of Augustine and the death of Cassius were foretold in vision. If both those were graū∣ted to be true visions, your religion were neuer the bet∣ter, except the conuersion of the one, and the death of the other be your religion. But admitting the dreame of Monica to be a true vision, howe proue you that the Chapeline of Cassius did not fayne his vision after his maister was dead?

But the dreame of Iudas Machabaeus who sawe the Prophet Ieremy pray for the people, is recorded in the Canonical Scripture it selfe (sayth Bristow) 2. Mach. 15. chap. which Scripture the Protestants reiect, because it maketh against them, as they would doe all the rest, but that they thinke they haue inuēted shiftes good enough to blinde the worlde. What reuerence we beare to the holy Scriptures of God, he him selfe, our owne consci∣ence, and the whole world can testifie. And the reiecti∣on of such bookes as were not written by the spirite of God, doth approue the same. Beside the authoritie of the auncient Churche, both of the Iewes and Gentills which neuer receiued the same bookes into the canon, we haue often made manifest demonstration, that they proceeded not from the spirite of God. Wherefore the Papistes making them of equall credit with the worde of God, incurre the curse of God, which is vnto all them that either adde or take away any thing from his holy word.

But the Papistes are not destitute of visions in these daies, for Bristow knoweth a Protestant who hath con∣fessed that he saw in a dreame, the communion booke out of many handes cast into a fire, and yet the man cō∣tinueth a Protestant. Verely he doth as a good Christi∣an should doe, that not onely with no vaine dreames, but nether with visions of Angells from heauen he will be moued to condemne that doctrine which he know∣eth assuredly to be agreable to the holy Scriptures. But there was a Papist in London, which came to ye Church against his conscience, and sawe a fowle blacke dogge Page  27 take the communion euer more, at the naughty mini∣sters hands, as he offred it to the communicants, which stroke the Papist so at the hart, that he went home and dyed vpon it. This deuilish illusion, or melācholike per∣swasion of a deuilish dogged Papist, thinketh Bristow able to condemne the holy ministration of the Lordes supper, warranted by •••• Scriptures according to Christes institution? As for the extaticall & fantasticall dreame of maister Allington, tending (as I remember) to main∣teine Idolatrie, wise men regard as much as such fanta∣sies deserue, after which, if we should shape our religi∣on, we shoulde alter as often as any mans fonde humor or foolish conceit ministreth newe visions and straunge apparitions. But I mauell amonge so many visions, that Bristow omitteth, the famous vision of Elizeus Hall that came from Manchester to London, with a booke of his cold prophecyes, to cōuert the Queene & the Realme to Papistrie. Well (sayth Bristow) you scorne at our vi∣sions and dreames, yet was S. Cyprian of our religion: Because he defendeth some visions and dreames which were seene in his time, which were not to mainteyne a∣ny thing cōtrary to the Scripture, but that which was a∣greable to the same. A poore reason, why he should be of your religion. And yet it is all the reason that you bringe. But for our iudgement of miracles, of visions & dreames to be motiues in controuersies of the Church, you shall heare Augustines sentence, De〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉Ecclesiae cap. 16. against the Donatistes.

Remois ergo omnibus tali∣bs, Ecclsiam suam demonstrent, sipossunt, non in sermonibus & rumoribus Asrorum, non in concilys Episcoporum suorum, non in literis quorumlibet d. sptatorum, non in signis & prodi∣gijs fallaibus, quia etiam contra ista verbo Domini praepara∣ti & cauti redd••i sumus, sed in praesripio legis, in Propheta∣rum praedictis, in Psalmorum cantibus, in ipsius pastoris voci∣bus, in Euangelistaru' predicationibus & laboribus, hoc est in omnibus canonics sanctorum librorum auctoritatibus. Wherefore setting aside all such matters, let them shew forth the Church to be theirs, if they can, not in the Page  28 speaches and rumors of Africanes, not in the councells of their Bishops, not in the writings of all maner of dis∣coursers, not in deceyueable signes & wonders, because that euen against those thinges, we are prepared and made warye by the worde of our Lorde: but in the pre∣script of the lawe, in the predictions of the Prophets, in the songes of the Psalmes, in the voyces of the sheepe∣herd him selfe, in the preachings and labors of the E∣uangelistes, that is to say in all the canonicall authori∣ties of the holy bookes 3. And againe in the same chap∣ter, & sic stendat & non dicat, verum est quia ego hoc dico, aut quia hoc dixit ille collegameus, aut illi collegaemei, aut illi Episcopi vel Clerici, vel Laici nostri, aut ide verum est quia illa & illa mirabilia fecit Donatus, vel Pontius, aut quilibet alius, aut quia homines ad memorias mortuorum no∣strorum orant & exaudiuntur, aut quia illa & illa ibi contin∣gunt, aut quia ille frater nofler, aut illa soror nostra, tale visum vigilan vidit, veltale visum dormiens somniauit. Remoue∣antur ista vel figmenta mendacium hominum, velportenta fallacium spirituum, aut enim non sunt vera, quae diuntr, aut sihaereticorum aliqua mira facta sunt, magis cauere debemus. And let him so shew it, that he say not, it is true because I say this, or because this sayd that companion of mine, or those companions of mine, or those our Bishops or Clerkes or laymen: or therefore it is true, because Do∣natus or Pontius or any other hath done these or those miracles, or because men pray at the memories of our martyrs & are hearde, or because these are those things doe happen there, or because that our brother or that ou rsister sawe such a vision waking, or dreamed such a vision sleping. Let these things be remoued which ether are the faynings of lying men, or els the wonders of de∣ceyuing spirites, for either they are not true that are sayd to be, or if any miracles are done by heretikes, we ought the more to take heede of them. And yet againe he writeth in the same booke and chapter. Sed vtrumips∣ecclesiam teneant, non nisi diumarum sripturarum Canontcis libris ostcudant, quia nee nos propterea dicimus nobis crede∣rePage  29 oportere, quod in ecclesia Christi sumus, quia ipsam quam te∣nemus co••niendauit Mileuitanus Optatus, vel Mediolanen∣sis Ambrosius, vel alij innumerabiles nostrae cōmunionis Epi∣scopi, aut quia nostrorum collegarum concilijs ipsa predicata est, aut quia per totum orbem in locis sanctis quae frequentat nostra communio tanta mirabilia, vel exauditionum vel sa∣nitatum fiunt, ita vt latentia per tot annos corpora martyrum (quod possunt à multis interrogantes audire) Ambrosio fuerint reuelata, & ad ipsa corpora Caecus multrum annorum, ciui∣tati Mediolanensi notissinus oculos lumē{que} receperit, aut quia ille Sōnium vidit, & ille spiritu assumptus audiuit, siue ne in∣iret in partem Donati, sue vt recederet à parte Donati. Quae∣cun{que} talia in Catholica fiunt, ideo sunt approbāda, quia in Ca∣tholica fiunt: non ideo ipsa manifestatur Catholica quia hae: in eafiunt. Ipse Dominus Iesus cum resurrexisset à mortuis, & discipulorum oculis videndum manibus{que} tangendum cor∣pus suum offerret: nequid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitraren∣tur, magis eos testimonijs Legis & Prophetarum & Psal∣morum confirmandos esse idicauit ostendens, ca de se imple∣ta, quae fuerant tanto ante praedicta. Sic & ecclesiam suam cō∣mendauit dicens praedicari in nomine suo poenitentiam & re∣missionem peccatorum per omnes gentes, inciptentibus ab Hierusalem. Hoc in Lege & Prophetis & Psalmis esse sri∣ptum ipse testatus est, hoc eius ore commendatum tenemus. Haec sunt causae nostrae documenta, haec fundamenta, haec fir∣mamēta. But whether they holde the church or no, let them shew none otherwise, but by the Canonical books of the holy Scriptures: Because that neither we do say, that therefore men must beleue vs, that we are in the Church of Christ, because Optatus of Mileuitum or Ambrose of Millain, or innumerable other Bishops of our communion, haue commended this Church which we hold, or because it is commaunded in the councels of our fellow Bishops, or because that in the holy places which our comunion doth frequent throughout the worlde, so gteat miracles are done either of hearing mens prayers or of healings, so that the bodies of mar∣tyrs which haue bene hidden for so many yeres, (which Page  30 which thing if they will aske they may heare of many) were reuealed vnto Ambrose, and that at the same bo∣dies a man which had bene blind many yeres, very well knowen to the city of Millain, receiued his eyes & sight: or because this man sawe a dreame, or that man being taken vp in spirite did heare, either that he shoulde not enter into the faction of Donatus, or that he should de∣part from Donatus side. Whatsoeuer of such things are done in the Catholike church, they are therefore to be approued because they are done in the Catholike church, but the church is not therby proued Catholike, because such things are done in it. Our lord Iesus him∣selfe, when he had risen from the dead, & offred his bo∣dy to be seene with the eyes, & touched with the hands of his disciples, yet least they should think they suffered any illusion, he iudged that they were rather to be con∣firmed with the testimonies of the lawe & the prophets, & the Psalmes, shewing that those thinges were fulfilled of him, which were so long before prophecied. So also he cōmended his church, saying, that repentance & for∣genenes of sinnes must be preached in his name throgh out all nations, beginning at Hierusalem. This he him selfe testifieth to be writtē in the lawe & the prophetes, & the psalmes, this we holde being commnded to it by his owne mouth. These be profes of our cause, these be our foundations, & these be our strong argumentes.

These thinges I haue set downe more at large, out of Augustine, because they are not onely a stop vnto these motiues of miracles, & visions, but in a manner to all the rest that followe.

The 8. motiue is the 4. demaunde.

Scriptures denied by the Protestantes, what scriptures they deny, praying for the dead confirmed by scripture, & pray or of*saintes for vs, fayth onely aganst the scripture. Reall presence of Christ in the sacrament confirmed by scripture. No scrip∣ture, Page  31 is against the Catholikes but all is for them.

VVhosoeuer haue taught doctrine (saith Bristow) so plain∣ly repugnant to the holy Scriptures, that for maintenaunce*thereof they were faine to deny bookes of the holy Scriptures, or to say the Scriptures to haue bene falsified and corrupted, they were heretikes: and such are the Protestantes, there∣fore they are heretikes: Howe proue you the Protestants to be suche? Marie sayth Bristow first they deny the Canonicall most certayne Scripture of the Macha∣bees, for none other cause, but that it is playne against their heresies, maynteyning prayer for the dead and prayer of Sainctes for vs. This is a lowde lye, for we shewe many causes, why we reiect that prophane wri∣ting of Iasons abridger, beside the auctoritie of the Iewish church before Christ, and the primitiue church after Christ as I haue declared against the secōd booke of Allens defence cap. 3. But in defense of the booke of Machabees to be Canonical, Bristow wilsay as S. Au∣gustine sayd to certeyne that denyed a testimony of the booke of wisedom de praedest. Non debuit. They should not reiect the saying of the booke of wisedom which in the church of Christ hath deserued so long a rew of yeares to be recited in the steppe of the readers of the church of Christ and with worship of diuine auctoritie to be heard of all Christians from the Bishops to the lowest sorte of lay men &c. And againe. Et Etiam temporibus &c. Euen the notable interpreters that were next to the Apostles times, when they brought forth that booke for witnes, beleued that they brought nothing but a di∣uine testimonie.

Touching this defense, first I aske of Bristow, how he can proue that the booke of Machabees, hath had such continuaunce of credit? Secondly howe this saying of Augustine cōcerning the booke of wisedom, can be true when Hierome plainly reiecteth it, as not Canonicall praefat. in Prouerb. Thirdly I demaunde how Bristow can defend his maior, if we admitte this saying of Augustine to be true, for not Pelagius as Allen sayth expressely, Page  32 nor any Pelagians as Bristow seemeth to meane, but such as defended the Catholike faith against Pelagius, reiected this saying of the booke of Wisedome, which booke also we refuse, although not for that saying and what one article of our doctrine doth that booke im∣pugne? nay rather there is testimonies therein manifest aga••st Images, against Purgatory and merites, yet can not we therefore allow the writings of Phlo a ew since Christes time, for the canonicall Scripture of Salomon, whose title it sally beareth.

But to proceede, Luther denyeth the Epistic of S. Iames, because it is against his heresie of instfication by faith one∣ly. We allowe not Luther, neither did he allow him self therein, for he retracteth it afterward. Yet is not Euse∣bius counted an heretike which vtterly reiecteth that Epistle. Lib. 2. cap. 23.

But to goe on, Beza doth say, that S. Lukes Gospell is fal∣sified, because it mainteyneth the reall presence of Christ in the sacramet, where he sayth, Hic est calix this is the chalice, which is shed for you. This is an impudent slaunder, which I haue aunswered against Saūders rocke of the church, in his ninthe marke of an Antichristiā, where it is hand∣led at large, and thether I referre the Reader. To con∣clude, Bristow saith, no Scriptures is against the Catho∣likes but all for them, because they must obediently re∣ceiue and beleue all Scriptures canonicall. But what o∣bedience and beliefe they attribute to the canonicall Scriptures, it is plaine by this, that they dare not abide the triall by them, but flie from them to traditions as Bristow doth euen in the next motiue, as though the Scriptures inspired of God were not sufficient both to teache all truth, and to confute all errors.

In the demaund this motie is handled somewhat o∣therwise, for there we are examined, whether in the cō∣ference of Carthage Augustine and his fellowes did not proue by Scripture, that a visible Church should be∣ginne at Hierusalem which shoulde continue visibly to the ende of the world. I aunswer, they proued sufficient∣ly, Page  33 that the preaching of the gospell beginning at Hie∣rusalem, should gather the Church out of all partes of the world, and therefore the faction of Donatus, which begonne in Africa & was not to be found but in a cor∣ner of Africa, could not be the Church of Christ. But of a visible Church to continue visibly in manner as Bri∣stow demaundeth, there was no controuersie in that conference, and therefore no proofe thereof brought out of the Scriptures.

The 9. motiue is the 29 demaund.

Traditions most certaine. The Apostles were of our religion. * S. Augustine, S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome, S. Cypriane. fasting daies, lent, masse for the dead prayer for the dead confirmed by the Apostles traditions, water mingling mith the wine in the chalice. The Masse made by S. Paule. S. Paule of our religiō.

The true Church (sayth Bristow) hath alwayes had tradi∣tions*beside the Scripture, and what company soeuer was faine to crye for only Scriptures, & to deny most certeyne traditions of the Apostles, their doctrine was heresie and they heretikes. To proue that the church had alwayes traditions beside Scripture, he bringeth in the sayings of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. 2. Thess. 3. before the Scripture was all written, when it was necessary for the Church to haue much of the doctrine deliuered onely by preaching, yet had they no doctrine of faith, but such as was cōfirmed by scriptures of the olde testament, as is manifest 2. Pet., But for the certaintye of popishe traditions, what proofe hath he? First Basil de sp. sancto cap. 27. sayth Dogmata &c. Matters of doctrine which are kept and preached in the church, we haue partly by doctrine committed to writing, part∣ly by tradition of the Apostles, which are of like force vnto godlines &c. But the same Basil writeth contrary to him selfe and agreeable to the truth, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Page  34 Whatsoeuer is beside the holy Scripture, in that it is not of faith, is sinne. And 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. he requi∣reth euen newe planted Christians to be instructed in the holy Scriptures, both for their full perswasiō in god∣lines, & also 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. that they be not acquainted with mens tra∣ditions. Furthermore (sayth Bristow) Augustine, Epi∣phanius & the Protestants them selues, condemne Hel∣uidius for an heretike, for denying the perpetuall virgi∣nitie of Marye the mother of Christ, contrary to the Churches tradition. Nay rather for troubling ye church with contention about that, in which he hath no groūd out of the Scriptures. Now let vs see how they are pro∣ued to be heretikes, that refuse traditions of the Apo∣stles, & are fayne to cry for onely Scriptures. First that Maximinus the Arrian did so, ergo whosoeuer doth so is an heretike, according to Bristowes logike. And yet he belyeth Maximinus, for he refused not traditions of the Apostles, but such wordes as were beside the Scripture, meaning Homousion & such like termes, which were thē newly vsed, but yet conteyned no newe doctrine, but e∣uen that which alwayes was approued according to the Scriptures. The same thing did the decree of the here∣tical Emperour Constantius forbid, & not traditions of the Apostles, of which was no controuersie, betwene the true Christians & the Arrians.

But that the Scriptures onely are of sufficient authoritie to confute heresies, Augustine declareth euen against the same Maximinus lib. 3. cap. 14. Sed nun nec ego Niccnum &c. But now must not I bring forth the councel of Nice, nor thou the coū∣cel of Ariminum, to make any preiudice, but by the au∣thoritie of Scriptures not being proper to ether, but cō∣mon witnesses to vs both, let matter contend with mat∣ter, cause with cause, reason with reason.
Likewise he and his fellow Bishops sayd vnto the Donatists in the confe∣rence of Carthage. Si tantummodo id qu. crerctur qu vel rbi esset Ecclesia, nihil se acturos publicis gestis, sed scriptura∣rumPage  35diuinarum tantummodo testimonijs. If this onely were the question, which or where the Church were, that they woulde pleade nothing at all by publike actes of men, but only by the testimonies of the holy Scriptures.
Yet sayth Bristow, the Apostles were of our religion, be∣cause Chrysostom sayth Ad pop. Antioch. that it was de∣creed by the Apostles, that in the dreadfull mysteries a remē∣brance should be made of the dead. This sayth Bristow, was masse for the dead. How prayers for the dead came in & how at lēgth sacrifice of the masse was applied vnto the dead, I haue shewed sufficiently against Allen lib. 2. ca. 5. If we should admit all thinges to be ordeyned of the A∣postles, which some of the olde writers doe ascribe to their traditions, wee should receiue many thinges that euen the Papistes them selues doe not obserue. As that it is a wicked thing to fast on Sōday, or to pray kneling, that oblations are to be made for mens birth dayes, &c. which with diuerse other superstitions Tertullian fathe∣reth vpon the tradition of the Apostles, as wel as oblati∣on for the dead. De coron. nul. hearing therefore such ma∣nifest vntruths are fathered vpon the Apostles traditi∣on by most aūcient writers, what certainty can we haue of their tradition, without their owne writing. Againe S. Hierom saith it was a tradition of the Apostles, to fast 40 daies in the yeare. If this be true, then is the popish story false, that maketh Telesphorus Bishop of Rome author of that lenten fast. Eusebius sheweth the great diuersitie of fasting before Easter li. 5, cap. 26. saying that some fa∣sted but 1 day, some 2 daies, some more, some 40 howres of day & night, this diuersitie proueth •••• Hierom vntruly ascribeth yt tradition to the Apostles, which should haue bene kept vniformely, if it had any institution of the A∣postles. Cyprian sayth it was our Lordes tradition, that the wine in the communion should be mingled wt water. But the Scripture saith not so, S. Paule wc deliuered that wc he receiued of Christ, saith not so. And yet Cypriā cō∣tēdeth principally for the vse of wine in the cup against the watry heretikes that vsed onely water. It is a cōmon Page  36 thinge with the auncient writers, to defend euery cere∣mony mhich was vsed in their time, by tradition of the Apostles. But the chiefe matter is the masse, which sayth Bristow S. Paule one of our religion made. I maruell whe∣ther Bristow writeth this for fooles to beleue, or for wise men to laughe at. When they them selues make Grego∣ry or Scholasticus, or I can not tell whom, auctor of the canon, and when they write howe euery peece was ad∣ded by what Pope, what impudence is it to say, that S. Paule made the Masse, and to call Augustine to witnesse that which he good man, did neuer thinke of, and much lesse write. Whose wordes Bristow hath mangled and falsified. for thus he citeth them Ep. 118. cap 6. Totum il∣lum agendi ordinem, quem uniuersum per orbem seruat Ec∣clesia, ab ipso ordinatum esse. That by him was ordeyned this order of doing, which through the whole world the Church doth keepe in doing of Masse.
The wordes of Augustine speaking of receiuing the communion, fa∣sting, or before all other meates, are these, vpon the wordes of S. Paule. Caetera cum venero ordinabo. Vnde in∣telligi datur, quia multum erat vt in epistola totum illum a∣gendi ordinem insinuaret, quem universa per orbem seruat Ec∣clesia, ab ipso ordinatum esse, quod nulla morum diuersitate variatur. Other thinges will I set in order when I come. Whereby it is giuen vs to be vnderstood because it was much, that in an epistle he should set forth that whole order of doing, which the whole Church throughout the world doth obserue, that this thinge was ordeyned by him, which is varied by no diuersitie of maners, vn∣derstanding the custome of receyuing the communion fasting, which he sayd before was generally obserued in all places.
But of ordeyning the masse there is no title You see now howe •••• Apostles & especially S. Paule is of Bristowes religion, beside Chrysostō, Hierom & Cypiā.

The 10 and 11 motiues are confusely contened in the 34 demaund.

The Courches iudgement is alwayes infallible. VVhen by *Page  37Iewell the Church of God dyed. Donatistes and Luciferians a∣liue againe in Protestants. S. Augustine and S. Hierome were of our religion. Protestants in their owne conscience be against the Church which is euerlasting and visible. No scripture a∣gainst the Catholiks but all for them. Christ to be loued for the authoritie of his Church, for which there be playner prophe∣cyes then for Christ him selfe.

Although we should graunt the Churches iudgemēt * to be alwaies infallible, yet would we neuer graunt the popish churches authoritye which falleth so manifestly from the word of God, & thereby sheweth her self to be the malignant Church, & Synagogue of Satan. That the Church of Christ hath alwaies ben from ye beginning, & shal continue vnto the end of the world, we all confesse and defende. Wherefore it is an impudent slaunder of Bristow, to saye that by Iewell the Church dyed within six hundreth yeares after Christ. And that the Donatistes and Luciferians are reuiued in Protestants. For we nether say, that the Church is perished out of all places, except Africa, as the Donatistes, nor that it is become a stewes with the Luciferians. But the Papistes are more like to the Donatistes, which say the Church is perished out of all partes of the world except Europe, and in steede of the Church they defende a stewes and sincke of all do∣latrie, superstition & vngodlines. Therefore Augustine and Hierom be not of Bristowes religion, for condem∣ning those heretikes to whome Bristow and his Papistes are more like then the Protestants.

Nether doe Protestants in their conscience thinke the Church of Christ to be against them, because Castalio an Anabaptist translateth Ecclesiae the Churche into reipublicae the common wealth, or because many vse the name of congregation, which is the true signification of this word Ecclesia, as no man will deny that is not past all shame. That the Churche is euerlasting and visible to them that haue suche eyes as the Churche is, that is spirituall, we neuer deny. But that it is visible to the Page  38 world alwayes, that shall neuer be proued. That no Scri∣pture is against the Catholikes we graunt, but that ma∣ny Scriptures are against the Papists, it hath bene more then a thousand times proued. That the church geueth testimonie to Christ & that the prophecies of the chur∣ches euerlasting continuance are plaine & euident, It is no question betwene vs. But that the synagoge of Ro∣mish Papists is the church of Christ, to whō such credit or reuerence is to be geuen, that I say, if Bristow woulde burst for anger, against the Protestantes, he shall neuer be able to proue.

The 11. motiue.

The practise or custome of the church of God. S. Paule and S. Augustine of our religion. Exorcisme & exufflation in bap∣tisme. * Pelagians aliue againe in Protestants. Baptisme neces∣sary for saluation of children. Chaūge of religion neuer made by us. Altares & prayer for the dead used alwayes. Reall pre∣sence of Christ in the Sacramēt. Pilgrimage reliques of Saints. S. Hierom of our religiō. Miracles for reliques. Churches cōfir∣med by miracles. VVhat an impudēt attēpt is chaūge of religiō.

Of the churches practise & custome I say, euen as of the churches iudgement, that how much soeuer it be to be esteemed, yet is not the Popish church the Catho∣like church of Christ but an apostasie & schisme from it. Neither is it sufficiēt for Bristow to say, ye Popish church practiseth many things that the aūciēt church of Christ practised, therfore it is the true church of Christ, except he can proue, that the Popish churchteacheth & practi∣seth all & nothing els but that which the anciēt church of Christ did teach & practise. In stede whereof Bristow can allege nothing, but certeine spots & wrinkles of the elder church, which the Popish church doth embrace, hauing almost nothing els like vnto it. But let vs see how substantially he proueth out of S. Paule & S. Augustine, that the churches custome and practise is an infallible rule of truth. First S. Paule (saith he) 1. Cor. 11. after many Page  39 reasons for the vncomelines of womēs going barehea∣ded recoyleth to this inuincible forte. Si quis &c. But if any man seeme to be contentious: we haue no such cu∣stome (for women to pray vncouered) nor the church of God. See how this impudent asse, to stablish his ground of custome, is not ashamed to falsifie the wordes of holy Scripture. S. Paul saith, if any man seme to be desirous of contention, we haue no such custome, nor the churches of God, whereby he meaneth plainly, that it is not the custome of the Apostles, nor of the church of God, to be contentious about such small matters of external beha∣uiour. May we herof inferre, that whatsoeuer the church at any time hath vsed, is allowable, & to be vsed alwaies? S. Aug. Ep. 118. Ian. is cited by Bristow but corruptly. Si quid tota per orbē frequentat ecclesia hoc quia it a aciendū sit disputare insolētissimae insaniae est. If ye whole church do vse any thing, only to call it in question whether that thing should be so don, is a poinct of most prowd or most strāge madnes. But Augustine is not so generall, for his words are, siquid horū, if any of these things, speaking of cere∣monial obseruations, as of receiuing the cōmunion fa∣sting &c. be vniuersally vsed of all the church, when it is not cōtrary to the word of God, it were madnes to striue about it. For in the first place, Augustine setteth the au∣ctority of Gods word, & secōdly the custome of the vni∣uersal church being not contrary to Gods word, & last of all, the customs of particular churches, which are varied according to the diuersities of cōtries & natiōs. Now for these matters in cōtrouersy betwene vs, I answer, as Au∣gustine doth to the questiō of Ianuarius, immediatly af∣ter the words cited by Bristow. Sed ne{que} hoc ne{que} illud est in eo quod tu queris. But neither is this nor that, in the que∣stion that thou propoundest: that is neither the practise of the vniuersall church, nor the auctority of the Scrip∣tures, serueth to decide this question but it is the third kind. So say I to Bristow, nether the auctority of the holy Scriptures, nor the practise of the vniuersall church, can be shewed for these things, which thou defēdest, but they Page  40 are of a third kind, that is contrary to the word of God and the practise of the most auncient Primitiue church But Augustine (sayth Bristow) proueth that infants are borne in sinne against the Pelagians, which are reuiued in Protestāts, by the customes & practise of the church, which was to baptise thē for remission of sinnes. And this practise he called the waight of truth, & a most plaine bignes of truth. The slaūder, that Pelagiās are aliue in Protestāts, by denying children to be borne in sinne, I wil no more esteme, then the barking of a dogge against the moone. But where he sayth, that Augustine by the only practise of the church, cōuinceth the Pelagians calling the pra∣ctise pōdus veritatis &c:

it is a shameles lye, for his words are in the same Epist. 105. Circunstiantur enim & diina∣rum auctoritate lectionū, & antiquitus tradito & retc̄to firmo Ecclesiae ritu in baptismate paruulorum. For they are com∣passed about, both by the auctoritie of the diuine rea∣dings, & also by the stedfast practise of the church, deli∣uered of old & reteined in the baptisme of infants.
But he vrgeth them with exorcisme and exsufflation, which were there vsed in the church: I confesse, but their mea∣ning by exufflatiō & exorcisme, he defendeth out of the Scriptures. And who can blame Augustine, if after he haue mightely confuted the Pelagians out of the Scri∣ptures, to shew the nouelty of their heresie, he alleaged the perpetuall practise of the church, which she alwaies had & alwaies shall haue in praying for the conuersion of infidels, & for the perseuerāce of the faithful in good∣nes. This is all one (saith Bristow) as if we should reason a∣gainst these heretikes out of priuate mens beades & out of the publike prayers which are in the portuse or Breuiary, or in the missall and such like bokes. The deuill it is, except Bristow can proue, that such beades and prayers, were euer vsed in the church.
For Augustine sayth de bono perseuer. ca. 22 Atque vtinam tardi corde, & infirmi qui non possunt, velnon dum possunt Scriptur as vel earum expositiones intelligere, sic audrient vel non audirent in hac quaestione disputationes no∣stras, vt magis intuer entur orationes suas, quas semper ha∣buitPage  41& habebit ecclesia ab exordijs suis, donec finiatur hoc se∣culum. And I would they that are dull of hart & weake, which can not, or as yet can not, vnderstand the Scrip∣tures or the expositions of them, would so heare or not heare our disputations in this question, that they would rather consider their owne prayers, which the church alwaies hath had & shall haue, from her beginning vntil this world be ended.
You see plainly, that Augustine ioy∣neth to the auctority of the holy Scriptures, the perpe∣tuall practise of the church which hath continued from the beginning and shall remayne vnto the ende. Which seeing it can not be shewed for Poperie, the argument of the practise of the church serueth not for Popery. Bristowe proceedeth and passeth ouer the example of Christian women, which killed them selues, rather then they would haue their bodies abused, yet notwithstan∣ding by the churches iudgement were honored as mar∣tyrs To which I aunswere, the church considered their minde which was good, & not the fact which was euell. At last he commeth to affirme that the Popish church neuer made any chaūge of religion. Which is a shame∣lesse assertion, although he say that none of his aduer∣saries is able to charge them with any alteration since Augustines time. For to omitte the whole scope of do∣ctrine, cleane peruerted, I will obserue only the practise of the church in Augustines time, about the Lords sup∣per. In that time the lay people did receaue the com∣munion in both kindes and one thousand yeres almost after, which of late the Papistes haue altered. In Au∣gustines time, the communion was geuen to infantes which the Papistes doe not obserue, therefore they can not bragge of perpetuall practise and deny all chaunge in religion made by them. But Bristow not content with this vayne bragge, will go farther and shewe that whatsoeuer they haue vsed sithe S. Augustines time, was obserued euen so in all that time that passed betwene S. Paule and S. Augustine. Is not this a master of impu∣dence, to promise that which all the worlde of learned Page  42 men doth know to be impossible to be performed, and whereof the promiser himselfe, can bring no profe at all but his bare worde. For he beginneth with exorcisme and exsufflation, which as it was vsed in Augustines time vnnecessarily, so it appeareth by Cyprian, that was long before him, that it was vsed for the casting out of the deuill in them whose bodies he did sensibly possesse. lib. 3. cap. 7. ad Magnum. Of the sacrifice of the Masse, worshipping of the Sacrament, and oblation for the deade, as Bristow referreth the reader to his fift and seuenth motiues so doe I to mine aunsweres vnto the same. Concerning the vse of the altare, howe truly he sayth, I referre the reader to mine answere of D. Hes∣kins lib. 3. cap. 31. The other fonde reason of the practise of the church, that children were taught to beleue the reall presence of Christ in the Sacrament, for which he citeth Aug. de Tim. lib. 3. cap. 10. which the poore man borowed out of Allens booke of Purgatory, is discussed & answered in my confutation of the same treatise lib. 2 cap. 9. Then followeth going on pilgrimage, to holy pla∣ces, worshipping of reliques, prayer vnto Sainctes, vsed (as he sayth) in Augustines time. For worshipping of re∣liques and praying to Sainctes, he citeth Aug de cre pro mor. Who concludeth that to be buried at some memorie of the martyrs doth in this poynct only auayle the dead, that the affection of supplication commending him also to the patro∣nage of the martyr may be encreased. That this was no perpetuall practise of the church to desire the interces∣sion of Sainctes, it is manifest by this, that Augustine him selfe dare affirme nothing certeinly, whether or how the Saincts may heare our prayers. Affirming that this question passeth the power of his vnderstanding cap. 16. But by the name of memory, Bristow will vnder∣stande relique, because it is somtime so vsed, which is no strong argument. But admitte it were so, how can he proue, either that practise to haue bene continued from S. Paule to S. Augustine or the same opinion of reliques to haue ben in Augustines time, which is mainteined in Page  43 the Popish church? that there was superstitious peregri∣natiō vnto Ierusalem &c. vsed in S. Hieroms time, it is as true as that the same was reproued of him Ep. ad Paul. If God shewed any miracles at the deade bodyes of the Martyrs, to confirme that religion for which they suffred against the Gentiles it foloweth not that the re∣liques of dead Saints are to be worshiped, kissed, saught vnto by pilgrimage &c, but most absurd is it, that Bristow would haue Hierome by oftē entering into the Cryptos or vaultes of churches at Rome, to signifie that he went a Pilgrimage. Hierome was not so grose, to accounte walking about the Citie to be a Preregrination. But what is so leaden or blockishe, which these doltish Pa∣pists will not auouch for the mainteinaunce of their trompery. Last of all he chargeth the Protestantes, with an impudent attempt, in making such an vniuer∣sall chaunge of the whole face of Religion, which none of the olde Heretikes did before thē. That we are like to none of the olde Heretikes, we like our selues neuer the worse, but as concerning the vniuersall chaunge, it was necessary in reformation where there was an vni∣uersal Apostacie. For any alteratiō that we haue made, the Papistes dare not affirme for shame, that wee haue brought any thing into the Church which ought not to be vsed by the worde of God: neither are they able to proue that we haue omitted anything, which by the ho∣ly scripture is necessaryly required. To cōclude, you see that the practise of the church, except it be perpetuall, euen from the first beginning, is no Motiue by Augu∣stines iudgement, and that Bristowe though hee hath bragged much thereof, for some superstitions vsed of olde, yet he hath brought nothing, to proue that they haue beene from the beginning.

The 12. Motiue is the 28. demaunde.

Sea apostolike. The communion of the Bishop of Rome * to be kept of all Christians. The Romain Church is the Ca∣tholike Page  44Church. Saint Augustine of our religion. Such as are condemned by the Sea Apstolike are holden for Heretikes. Pelagians aliue againe in Protestants. Emperours and other peeres of our Religion, as also their first conuersion. S. Theodo∣ret, Chrisostom, and Hierome of our Religion. Antichristes side against the Pope. Protestants doe decay and shall come to nothing.

VVhosoeuer (sayth Bristow) at any time were for their doing or teaching condemned by the definitiue sentence of*the Sea Apostolike, and stubbernly condemned the same, they were Scismatikes or heretikes. And contrariwise, all Catho∣like men haue kept them selues in the vnitie of that sea, and if for any cause they were out of it, labouring to be reconci∣led againe, or if they had beene but suspected, neuer ceasing vntill they had made their purgation. Moreouer he saith, there can none example be alleadged to the contrary, but in∣numerable for it. It is not denyed, but the Church and Sea of Rome, while it continued in true catholike Re∣ligion, was much reuerenced euery where, so farre at least as the Romane empire did extende. But when any Bishop of that sea, went out of the way, either in scisme or herefie, they were not followed but resisted, & con∣demned. For Example, When Victor bishop of Rome like a proude scismatike, did take vpon him to excom∣municate all the Churches of the East, for celebration of Easter, they did not onely contemne his censure, but many Bishops also did sharply rebuke him, as Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons: & other. Euse. li. 5. ca. 25. Whē Liberius bishop of Rome relented vnto the Arrians, he was for∣saken of the true Christians, and accounted an Here∣tike. Hier. in Catal. When Bonifacius, Zosimus and Ce∣lestinus, Bishops of Rome, would chalenge appellations out of Africa, contrary to the decrees out of the coun∣cels of Africa, by counterfaiting a Canon of the Nicene councell, they were resisted by all the Bishops of A∣frica, and the trechery discouered. Caic. Aphric. ad. celest. To these examples adde Pope Honorius, cōdemned in Page  45 the generall councell of Constantinople the sixt, for a Monothelite. Euen the popish councell of Constans, deposed three Popes. But now let vs see Bristowes wise examples. The Pelagians (which he saith, but sheweth not how) are aliue in Protestants, were condemned by the Apostolike Sea as witnesseth Augustine. Episto. 106. And this iudgement of the Catholike Church, the Emperour Honorius confirmed as testifieth Possidoni∣us and Augustine. What then? Ergo Saint Au∣gustine and the Emperours were of our Religion. If the Pelagians had beene condemned by the autho∣ritie of the Byshoppe of Rome, without conuiction out of the holy Scriptures, the Example had beene to some purpose. But when their heresie was bothe by Preaching, writing, disputing and Councell de∣clared to be contrarie to the worde of God, then if the Byshoppe of Rome subscrybed to his condemna∣tion, as one of the true Patriarches of the Church within the Romaine Empire, what doth this aduaunce the singularitie of his Sea? For examples of Catho∣lickes purging them selues, Firste he nameth Chry∣sostome in his Epistle to Innocentius the sixt of Rome, but setteth downe none of his woordes, as in deede there is no such matter in that Epistle, onely he shew∣eth howe iniuriously hee was handled by the barba∣rous Souldiers. His next example is: Theodoretus Byshoppe of Cyrus, who beeing vniustly deposed, appealed to Leo Byshoppe of Rome, which consi∣dering of his case indifferently, consented to his re∣stitution in the councell of Chalcedon. But that The∣odoret would not haue accounted him selfe an Here∣tike or scismatike, although he had beene condemned by Leo, it is plaine by these words.

Vestrā enim expecto sententiam. &c. For I expect your sentence, and if you commaund me to stand vnto that which hath beene iudged against me, I will stande vnto, it neither will I trouble any man heereafter about it, but will expect the iudgement of our God and Sauiour, which can∣not Page  46 be altered.
These wordes declare, that Theodoret although the Bishop of Rome also shoulde be decey∣ued to confirme his depriuation, by his sentence, yet he woulde not thinke him selfe to be an heretike, but quietly waight for the iudgement of God, which could not be deceyued, as the iudgement of man was. Wher∣fore Theodoret was farre from acknowledging those popish principles. That the Pope can not erre, that his iudgement is all one with the iudgement of God. Although the mysterie of iniquitie in the Bishop of Romes prerogatiue, had by that tyme wrought very highe. The submission of Hierome to Pope Damasus, you shall finde aunswered in my confutation of Saun∣ders rocke cap. 15. where you shall see how the Church of Rome was called Catholike, while it was so in deede, and howe Antichristes side was against the Bishop of Rome, namely so longe as the Bishop of Rome was on Christes side. Whether Protestantes in England haue decayed and Papistes increased, as Bristow braggeth, for these 16. yeares, let wise men iudge. Although want of seuere discipline hath caused many to remaine obstinate, and some perhaps that were of no religion, to fall to Popery, yet for the number, it is altogether false, that Bristow so confidently affirmeth.

The 13. motiue is the 27. demaund.

Councells. The Apostles were of our religion. Parlia∣ment religion. The councell of Trent. Councells. S. Augu∣stines * motiue.

VVhosoeuer hath bene condemned by any councell (sayth Bristow) generall or prouinciall confirmed by the sea Aposto∣like,*They were heretikes, nether can there against this be brought any exception. I will bringe such exceptions, as Bristow for both his eares dare not affirme the parties so condemned, to be heretikes. Liberius Bishop of Rome, was first a good Catholike, so farre that for re∣fusing Page  47 to satisfie the Emperour Constantius, which re∣quired him to subscribe to the vniust depriuation of A∣thanasius, he was caried into banishment, and one Fe∣lix a good Catholike also, yet by faction of the Arrians, was chosen Bishop of Rome in his place. But afterward, Liberius sollicited and perswaded by one Fortunatia∣nus as S. Hierome witnesseth in catal. and through wea∣rines of his banishment as Marianus Scotus testifieth, subscribed to the heresie of Arrius, and returned to Rome like a Conquerour. For whose returne and de∣priuation of Felix, Constantius gathered a councell, which was confirmed by Liberius, as testifieth Pope Damasus in his pontificall.

Constantius Augustus fecit concilium cum haereticis simul etiam cum Vrsacio & Valente, & eiecit Felicem de Episcopa••s qui erat Catholicus, & reuo∣cauit Liberium. Constantius the Emperour held a coun∣cell with the heretikes and also with Vrsacius and Va∣lens, and did cast out Felix which was a Catholike out of his bishoprike, and called backe Liberius. And a∣gaine: Ingressus Liberius in vrbem Romam 4. nonas Augu∣sti, cnsensit Constantio haeretico, non tamen rebaptizatus est, sed consensum praebuit. Liberius after he entred into the citie of Rome the 4. of the nones of August, he con∣sented to Constantius the heretike, but yet he was not rebaptized, but he gaue his consent. Let Bristow ad∣uise him selfe, which of the Popes he dare call here∣tike.
If he condemne Felix and iustifie Liberius, then hath he S. Hierome against him and Pope Damasus, which can not erre.
Another exception I will bringe of Pope Honorius the first, condemned and accursed for an heretike by the generall councell of Constantinople the sixt, confirmed by Pope Leo the 2. and that not generally but by speciall wordes, pariter{que} anathematiza∣mus noui erroris inuentores &c. nec non & Honorium qui hanc apostolicam Ecclesiam non aposiolicae traditionis doctri∣na lustrauit, sed profana praedicatione immaculatam fidem subuertere conatus est. And likewise we accurse the in∣uentors of the newe errour &c: and also Honorius Page  48 which did not lighten this apostolike Church, with doctrine of Apostolike tradition but by profane prea∣ching went about to ouerthrowe the vndefiled faith. The same Pope Honorius is condemned in the se∣cond councell of Nice confirmed also by the Pope A∣drian.
Notwithstanding all this, I would Bristow were so hardy on his head, to graunt that Honorius was an he∣retike. I might ioyne to these, three Popes condemned by the councell of Constance, confirmed by Pope Iohn 23. One of the three. also the condemnation of Pope Eugenius by the councell of Basil, confirmed by Pope Nicolas and Felix. But the other are sufficient excepti∣ons against Bristowes false principle. Now whatsoeuer he prateth of auctority of councelles, is to no purpose. For we acknowledge how necessary synods are for the church of Christ, with the Apostles, whom the fond mā boasteth to be of theyr religion, because they helde a councell. Not considering howe they determined the controuersie, only by auctority of the holy Scriptures, as it is manifest Act. 15. And what councell soeuer fol∣loweth that rule, we gladly embrace, and that is the cause, why the parliament ioyneth, the foure first gene∣rall councells with the Scriptures, in triall of heresie, not that those councels are of equall auctority with the worde of God, but in that they agree with the same, in condemning the heresies of Arrius, Macedonius, Ne∣storius and Eutiches. That proude scoffe of Parliament religion, bewraieth the stomake of a Vauntparler, & not the spirit of a diuine or good subiect. Popery was also confirmed by Parliament in Queene Maryes time, therefore it was Parliament Religion. But where as he would compare the laste rablement of Trent, in all pointes with those ancient holy Councels, he doth e∣uen as much as if he would goe about to proue an Ape to be a man. But I may not omit that in shewing the ne∣cessitie of the Popes confirmation of Councels, out of Annianus Marcellus, Lib. 15. Hee helpeth the matter with falsifying the writer, sor he deliuereth his wordes Page  49 thus, auctoritate qua potires aterne •••• Episcopi, with the authoritie in which the Bishops of the eternall city are better whereas the word is poiuntur, by that autho∣ritie which the Bishops of Rome haue or doe enioy. But if we shall beleue Marcellinus an heathen writer. Libe∣rius Bishop of Rome, was of the same mind in condem∣nation of Athanasius, that the rest of the Bishops were, which proceeded against him, but that he thought it not reason, to subscribe to his condemnation before he had seene and heard him. For thus Ammon writeth.
Hunc per subsriptionem abiicere sede sacerdtali, para sen∣tiens ceteris iubente principe, Liberius monitus perseucranter renitebatur, nec visum hominem nec auditum damnare nefas vltimum sepe exclamans, apertè silicet recalcitrans impera∣toris arbitrio. Id enim ille Athanasio scmper infesius, liet si∣ret impletum, tamen auctoritate q••a potiuntur aeterne vrbis Episcopi firmari dsiderio nitebatr ardente. This man (spea∣king of Athanasius condemned before by a Synode of Bishops) Liberius being of the same opinion with the rest, warned by the Princes commaundement, did stiffly refuse by subscription to cast out of his priestly seate, crying out often tymes, that it was extreme wickednes, to condemne a man being nether heard nor seene, so o∣penly kicking against the Emperours pleasure. Who al∣though he which being alwayes an enemy to Athanasi∣us, knew that it was already fulfilled, yet he labored with earnest desire, to haue it confirmed by the authoritie which the Bishops of the eternall citie haue.
There can nothing els be gathered of this, but that Constantius, knowing Athanasius to be depriued by a councell of Bi∣shops of the East, would haue Liberius Bishop of Rome, to consent to his condemnation, because Athanasius was one of the foure Patriarchs, & was not to be condē∣ned, but by the rest of the Patriarches. Not that it was then thought, that all councels were insufficient, except they had the Popes confirmation, as Bristow doth dreame.

But Bristow sayth, the Protestants regarde no coun∣cells, Page  50 because they suffer Lewys Euans in a naughtye booke to cal the councel of Chalcedon a blasphemous, proude, sacrilegious Antichristian Councell. This Lewys Euans while he was a Papist, and did write from Louayne in defence of Papistrye, was accompted of you a learned man, a sober man, a godly man, but now that God in great mercye, hath opened his eyes to see and acknowledge the light of the Gospell, you rayle on him and slaunder him at your pleasure. For if you had bene able to iustifie your reproche, you woulde haue noted in which of his bookes, seeinge he hath written many, and in what leafe and lyne he had writ∣ten so vnreuerently of that Councell. Howsoeuer it be, he is able to aunswer you him selfe: Although if he haue erred in the name or iudgement of that councell, it were small reason to charge all the Protestantes in England, with one priuate mans error.

The last is, that Councells were S. Augustines mo∣tiue, because he writeth, that euen prouinciall Coun∣cells, must giue place without all doubt to generall Councells.

De bapt. cont. Dn. lib. 2. cap. 3. but what wri∣teth Augustine immediatly after? Ipsáque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari cum aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clasum erat, & cognoscitur quod latebat sine vllo trpo sacrilegae superbiae, sine inflata ceruice arrogan∣tiae, sne vlla contentione liutdae inuidiae, cum sancta hu∣militate, cum pace Catholica, cum charitate Christiana. Who knoweth not, sayth Augustine. That euen gene∣rall Councells are often tymes, the former corrected by the later, when by any tryall of thinges, that is ope∣ned which before was shutte, and that is knowen which before was hidde, without any swellinge of sacrilegi∣ous pride, without any swellinge stubbernes of arro∣gance, without any contention of spightfull enuye, with holye humilitie, with Catholike peace, with chri∣stian charitie.
What saye you Sainct Augustine? haue generall Councells often erred, that the former were corrected by the later? If you mayntayne this saying, Page  51 you shall be no longer of Bristowes religion.

The 14. motiue is the 26 demaund.

The fathers. Pelagians aliue in Protestants. The fathers. * S. Augustines motiue. Protestants be ashamed of their fa∣thers. Of what religion and authoritie the fathers were. L. Humfries opinion of Iewells chalenge of the fathers, and of the Sainctes in the Calender.

Bristow woulde haue it considered whether euer any Catholike man in matters of fayth, did obstinately refuse to*beleue the olde fathers consenting in one and agreeing toge∣ther, but onely such as were heretikes. I aunswer Bristow playeth the captious, and yet foolishe Sophister. For in this first demaunde, he seemeth to vnderstand all the olde fathers consenting together, but in the rest of the chapter he playnely speaketh, but of some of the olde writers: nowe there is great difference betwene all and some. For we denye nothing that all the olde fathers did consent vpon, although we denye some thing that some of the olde fathers did allowe. For example, we denye prayers for the deade, which some of the olde writers did allowe. But if Bristow woulde breake his heade in peeces with studye, he shall neuer be able to proue, that all the olde writers did mayntayne prayer for the deade, the like I saye of prayer vnto Sainctes, and of some prerogatiue of the Bishop of Rome ouer other Bishops, of some ceremonies &c: which being the dregges of a great quantitie of good liquor con∣tayned in the vessells of diuerse of the olde writers, and yet of the later sorte of them, the Papistes haue onely sucked out, letting all the good liquor to runne beside them. And like impudent dogges yolpe & barke against vs, that the fathers are all of their side, and contrarye to vs: with as good reason, as one that hath gotten the excrementes of a man, shoulde boast Page  52 boast that he hath the same man in possession. I thinke the reader can not but laughe, when he readeth it so often noted by Bristow. Pelagians aliue in Protestantes. When of all olde heresies we are further from none, nor Papistes nearer to any, then to the heresie of the Pelagians. But why troe ye are Pelagians aliue in Pro∣testants? Because Augustine writing against Iulian the Pelagian lib. 1. cap. 2. sayth of the fathers, Qud credunt credo &c. That which they beleue I beleue also. I holde that they holde, I teache that they teach, I preach that they preach, and lib. 2. quos oporct &c. Christian people ought to prefere the auncient holy truth, before your profane nouelties and chose rather to sticke to them then to you. And are Pelagians aliue in Protestants, because Augustine reciueth the olde writers, that were agreeable to the scriptures? Did not the Pelagians alledge the authority of the old writers also? Lb cont. Iul cap. 2. & 3,

But what should I contend about that, which is so cleare in Au∣gustine. De baptism cnt Dnatsi. cap. 2. Quis autem nesciat anctam scripturam canonicam tam rt. ris quam noui testa∣••••, ertis sis terminis contineri? cam{que} omnibus posteri∣cribus Episcoprum literis it a praeponi, vt de ill a omnino du∣bitari & d. s epari non psst, vtrum verum vel vtrum rectūs quiqu•• in ea sriptum esse constiterit: Ep s••porum au∣tem literas que post confimatum cannem vel scripte sunt vel sriuntur, & per sermnem forte sapientiorem cuiuslibet in care periti rs, & per aliorun Epis••porum grauiorem aucto∣ritatem doctorum{que} prudentiam, & per conilia liere repre∣hndi si quid in is forte à veritate deuiatum est, & isa con∣cilia &c. Who knoweth not, that the holy canonical scri∣pture both of the old and new testament, is conteyned in their certeine bands: and that the same is so prefer∣red before all later writings of Bishops, that of it there can be no doubt or question at all, whether that be true or right, whatsoeuer is knowen to be written there∣in. But as for the writings of Bishops, which since the canon is confirmed haue bene written, or b nowe in writing, that by some speach perhaps more wise of any Page  53 man that is more skillfull in that matter,
and by the more graue authoritie of other Bishops, and wisedom of them that are better learned,
and by councells they may be reprehended, if any thinge perhaps in them is gone a straye from the truth, and that eun those coun∣cells which are helde in euery region and prouince, without all controuersie doe giue place to the autho∣ritie of generall councels which are made out of all the Christian worlde, and that euen the generall coun∣cells are often tymes corrected the former by the later &c. as in the 13. motiue.
By which saying you may playnly see, howe the olde fathers were S. Augustines motiue, euen none otherwise, then they are our reten∣tiue, to staye vs in Christian truthe, which they write agreeable to the holye Scriptures, and therefore it is an impudent slaunder of Bristowe bothe where he saythe, that in our preachinge and writinge we thinke it not necessary to alledge the tstimonies of te olde fathers, and also that in familiar talke amonge our selues we are not afearde plainely to confesse, that the fathers all were Papistes.

As vayne a cauill it is, that the Protestantes are a∣shamed of their fathers: When we acknowledge no fathers, vnto whose iudgement we will stande abso∣lutely in all controuersies, but the Prophetes and the Apostles and God him selfe, by whose spirite they did write. As for Simon Magus, Eunomus, and suche olde heretikes we detest, more then the Papistes doe. But AErius, Vigilantius, and Iouinian were playnely of our opinion, and of them we are ashamed. And doe you Papistes beleeue nothinge common with AE∣rius, Vigilantius, Iouinian? Doe you in no poynte holde that which Arius, Macedonius, Eutyches did holde? Doe you mayntayne no opinion which was taught by Mahomet him selfe? you will aunswer, that there neuer was heresie, but it hlde and taught ma∣ny articles of truthe, which if you holde as they did, you are not therefore their children, in suche articles Page  54 wherin they were heretikes. Euen so we aunswere you of AErius, Vigilantius, Iouinian, we are not ashamed to beleue any truth which they helde, their errours we leaue vnto them selues. But I know you will replye, that among the errours of AErius, the denyall of prayers to profit the deade was one accompted by Epiphanius and Augustine. Then it is your parte to shewe, what argumentes out of the holy Scripture they bring to proue this opinion to be an errour. Otherwise their au∣ctoritie alone, is not sufficient to make it a truth. Vigi∣gilantius is baighted only by Hierome, of other learned men in his time, he was counted a godly man, and a learned. As for Iouinian, we take not his parte, if in all respects he made mariage equall with virginitie, which in some respect the Apostle preferreth. But we must see of what religion and auctoritie, the fathers were. First sayth Bristow you may perceaue by Iewells challenge, that for Purgatorie, prayer for the dead and to Saincts, merite of good workes &c. there is somthing conteined in the olde fathers which liued within 600. yeares after Christ, because he durst not make his challenge of these articles, but of the Masse, the Pope, the eucharistie &c. But I pray you Bristow, are not these greater matters a∣mong you, then the other?

If therefore you be not able to proue your greatest mysteries of antiquitie, out of any one father for so ma∣ny ages, what great matter is it, if you haue them fa∣uourable in a fewe articles of lesse moment? But Bristow with wayght of reason will beare vs downe, that all the fathers are on their side wholly, and against vs in all poynctes of our controuersie. And this is his reason: who are driuen to mayteyne the fathers cre∣dit and auctoritie, Papistes or Protestantes? Not Pro∣testantes verily, but Papistes, ergo the fathers be all for Papistes and against Protestantes. A mightie rea∣son of mayne force. Dioscorus and Eutyches in the councell of Chalcedon boasted of the auctoritie of the holie fathers, and stoode much in defense of their Page  55 creditte therefore the fathers were whollie on their side.

But let vs heare L. Humfreys opinion out of his booke of B. Iewells life, of Iewells challenge, of the fa∣thers and of the Saincts in the calender. Nay rather let vs heare Bristow yelping like a little curre agaynst so great a lyon. First he snatcheth peeces of his sentences gnawne from the rest, and then squeleth out as though he had hearde some maruelous straunge soundes. D. Humfrey sayth, Iewell gaue the Papistes too large a scope, when not content to haue beaten them downe with the auctoritie of the holy Scriptures, he made his challenge vpon the testimonie of the fathers, and that so many hundreth yeares after Christ. And here∣in he was iniurious to him selfe, that refusing that meane by which he might more easely & more straight∣ly haue maynteyned his cause, after a maner he spoy∣led him selfe and the church. This is his opinion of Maister Iewells challenge. Howe followeth his opi∣nion of the fathers and of the Sainctes in the calender. This thing (sayth D. Humfrey) he did not with his wil, but yet he did it not without a cause, that he might strike you through with the testimonie of your fathers, as it were with your owne sworde. For it had beene manlie for a Christian man to say. Thus sayth the Lorde. It had bene sufficient to haue layed agaynst you. Your doctrine is contrarie to the Scripture. For it is the question of men possessed with deuills to say: What haue we to doe with thee Iesus thou sonne of Dauid? But it is an interrogation of the Saynctes. What haue we to doe with our fathers with fleshe and bloode? You heare by these wordes, what a daun∣gerous opinion he holdeth of the fathers and of the Saynctes in the calender, namelie that the fathers are no farther to be followed, then they followed the holie Scriptures, and that the Sainctes either liuing or deade, whether they be in the calender or no, deny their fathers as fleshe and bloode if they be in any Page  56 respect an hinderance for them to obey the will of their father in heauen.

These are the perillous opiniōs, that Bristow brableth against falsifying his words by ommission & depauing his meaning by false surmising.

But Bristow hath yet an other reason to proue the fa∣thers to be in all poinctes of their side. If in all poinctes (sayth he) they be not with the Protestants, then vndoubted∣ly in all poynctes they be with vs. And what is the reason of this monstruous conclusion? There was neuer but one true religion. As though none can be of true religion but such as erreth in nothing. But who would spend incke and paper to confute such vaine reasonings.

The 15. motiue conteineth the 15. 16. and 20. demaundes.

Martyrs. S. Stephen of our religion. Pilgrimage. Churches * confirmed by vision. Mracles for reliques and for necessitie of childrens baptisne. Confirming of children, the custome and practise of Gods church. Foxes martyrs. Miraces for our martyrs.

Al martyrs that euer suffred fot the testimony of true * religion, since Abel, were numbred of one true church, euen of the same that we are. But Bristow would binde vs to the Saincts in the calender, termed by L. Humfrey Sāctli, which terme yea & a worse, might serue a num∣ber of thē. Notwithstanding so many of those calēddred & canonized Sainctes as be Saincts in heauen and not firebrands in hell, were of that church which is builded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, Ie∣sus Christ being the head corner stone. And therefore it is a foolish request, that we should name any one of thē, which was of our faith. But it is a pleasant pastime, to heare howe Bristow proueth S. Stephen to be of his religion. It is manifest (sayth he) that he is of the reli∣gion Page  57 of the rest of the martyrs, meaning Papistes, be∣cause it is proued, that he as well as they, had heard & helped thē, which prayed to them, which worshipped their reliques, & went a pilgrimage to their churches, & he specially reuealing by vision, the place where his reliques were hidden with the reliques of S. Gamaliel, & S. Nicodemus: vnto one Lucian, a Priest of erusalem, which wrote in Greeke the history of his inuention. To this inuention, I answere, that it is an inuention of the deuill, either by meanes of him that counterfaited the vision, or by sending a stronge illusion, & so say gene∣rally of all such miracles and visions, as are alleaged, to proue any doctrine contrarie to the holy Scriptures. As for the vanitie of this epistell of Lucian, it be wrayeth it selfe in that he maketh Gamaliel the Pharizee, so great a Sainct, who for any thing that we can read in the ho∣ly Scripture, was neuer a Christian. S. Paule in the 22. of the Actes, appealeth to the knowledge of the Iewes, that he was brought vp in Iudaisme, vnder Gamaliel, which if after he had bene conuerted to Christianity it shoulde haue bene greatly suspected that S. Paule had bene noselled vp by him, and not conuerted by a vision from heauen, as his intent was to shew.

From this counterfait stuffe of Lucians epistell, he sendeth vs to the new founde sermons of Augustine, to whom he would get credit, by Augustines owne report, De ciuit. 22. ca. 8. but in vaine, for Augustine speaketh not of any such sermons, but only, when report of a miracle was brought vnto him, that he went vnto the church & spake a few things of the matter. And touching all such miracles as he reporteth of Stephen, his conclusion is this, God was glorified by them, and the faith for which Stephen died, was magnified. But of worshipping of reliques, pilgrimage &c. there is no mention, and yet that chapter of miracles, as Ludouicus Viues doth con∣fesse, is notably corrupted, as appeared to him, by an∣cient copies.

The conclusion was, Quid erat in cordibus exultantium nisi fides Christi, pro qua Stephani sanguisPage  58fusus est? What was in the hartes of them that reioysed, but the faith of Christ, for which the blood of Stephen was shed?

The miracle which Bristow reporteth out of the 38. Serm. in diuus & 96. in noua editione to proue the necessi∣tie of baptisme for infants & the practise of the church for confirmation of children, & praying to S. Stephen is an impudēt fiction, as appeareth manifestly by this, that he calleth a sucking babe Catechumenu, one that was in∣structed in Christian religion, which could not possibly be, before he was of yeares of capacity. Secondly the in∣fants ofChristian parents, in Augustins time, were bap∣tised as sone as they were borne, & taried not vntil they were Catechumeni, that is enstructed. Thirdly the woman in this fable, praying to S. Stephen, perswadeth him to know the purpose of her hart, which the word of God affirmeth to be known only to God. As impudent as the deuiser of that fable was, is Bristow, who citeth out of Augustine De nitat. eccles. cap. 16. a few words rent a sun∣der from the rest, cōcerning miracles, which the whole discourse, sheweth to be plainly against him, as you may read in this aunswere in the 8. motiue of visions. After this followeth a comparison of Foxes martyrs, with the Popish martyrs, Videlicet the good Earle of Northumber∣lande, Storie, Feltons, Nortons, VVodhouse, Plomtree, and so many hundrethes of the Northerne men, all rebells and traytors, yet (saith he) approued by miracles vndoubted, but what miracles, he sheweth not. To these he addeth Fisher, More, the Charterhouse monkes &c. whose cause being sufficiently discussed by M. Foxe, I referre to the iudgemēt of indifferent readers. But this I can not omit that the traiterous Papist, flaūdereth our state, not only for publike execution of open rebelles and errant tray∣tors, but also with priuie murthering, by poysoning, whipping, and famishing. From all suspition of which wicked practises, God be praised, the states that are pro∣fessors of the Gopell, haue alwayes bene as free, as the Papists both by storie & liuing testimonie may be Page  59 proued giltie of thē. And where hee specially chargeth that learned and reuerend Father M. Elmer now By∣shop of London, with this deuilishe practise, notinge these woordes in the margent, Let Elmer remember his Tragedie of the Scottishfriere at Lincolne. As I knowe not what coulour he hath for so great and haynous a slaū∣der, so I nothing doubt, but that the same is vtterly false and vntrue, as a thousand more slaunders and lyes, Wherein the Papists, as Children of the Father of lyes haue so great delight. To conclude, seeing not the paine, but the cause maketh a martyr, whosoeuer haue suffred for treason and rebellion, may well be ac∣counted Martirs of the Popisn Church, but the church of Christe condemneth such for enemies of Christes kingdome and inheritours of eternal destructi, except they repent and obtaine mercie for their horrible wic∣kednes. And seeing patient suffring is by Bristows owne confession, a gift of God, vnto all true Martirs, such as were manifestly voide of patience, can be no true Mar∣tirs, as were most of these rebels & traitors, & Story by name. Who for all his glorious tale, in the time of his most deserued execution by quartering, was so impatiēt that he did not only rore and cry like a helhounde, but also strake the executioner doing his office, and resisted as long as strength did serue him, beeing kept downe by three or foure men, vntil he was deade. O patient mar∣tir of the popish church. In the 15. & 16. demaund, he as∣keth vs whether we haue not read in Chrysostome, Au∣gustine, & others, that they vsed this argument to proue the diuinitie of Christ, that he hath aduanced his ser∣uants to such honor, that they are prayed vnto, & their graues honored of kings & Emperors, & that miracles are wrought by the reliqus of their Saints, I answere we read sōe such thing, although not altogither as Bristow reporteth, nor to yt end. But what if amōg a great nūber of forcible aguments, they vsed also some such persua∣sions? shuld their reasoning be a preiudice to the truth of God reueled out of the Scriptures: whervnto if those Page  60 holy man had had as great regarde as they wishe other men to haue in their writing, and not suffred them selues to be carried away with common plausible er∣rors, they should easely haue espyed that they gayned not so much in resoning so against the Painims, as they gaue occasion of superstition among the Christians.

And to aunswere the xx. demaunde, we are content to bee tryed by that doctrine for which the auncient Martyrs Irenaeus, Cyprian, Laurens &c. suffred per∣secution and Martyrdom, which was for no pointe of Popery but true christianitie, yet wil we not be tryed by all poyntes of doctrine which they did holde, for that it is certaine, some of them had their errors which the Papists them selues doe not holde, as Irenaeus is charged by Eusebius. l. b. 3. cap 39, to be a follower of the Chiliastes. Cyprian did openly in a councel, maintaine rebaptising of them which were baptised by Heretikes. Againe wee resuse not the tryall of that docttine for which the Christians were persecuted by the Arrians in Africa, notwithstanding the terme of Missa vsed by Victor that writeth that Story, by which tearme in that time, not the popish Masse (which then was not made, either in matter or forme) but the celebration of the Communion and memory of the sacrifice of Christ, commonly called in deede, but vnproperly a sacrifice, yet will we not be tryed by all that they holde, for diuerse errors of prayer for the deade and to the dead, were then receiued, neithet will the Papistes be tryed by that Religion they helde in all pointes. For then were Byshops married. Lib. 2. &, 3. Then the Prai∣ers were in the vulgar tounge, and all the people sunge Himnes togither, lib. 2. There is no reason therefore that the Papists shoulde call vs to such a tryall as they dare not abide them selues.

The 16. motiue is the 30. Demaunde.

Page  61
Their owne Doctors. The disorde of Protestants. Luther *ondemneth our Pretestantes. Carolstadians, Zwinglians, and Caluinists. Luther corrupteth the Scripture to helpe his heresie of the breade to be Christes body. The head of the church to be a Layman is against the Magdeburgenses and Caluine. The prophecie fulfilled in the accorde of the Prote∣stants and Puritants Parliament religion. The inconstancy of Protestants. VVhat an impudent attempt is chaunge of re∣ligion. True Christianitie by Luther is vnder the Popedome.

The discorde of our owne Doctors: Bristowe would haue to be a Motiue against vs. As though it were not * as great a motiue against them, whose Doctors dissent as much as ours. To omit all other controuersies, when will they bee agreed whether the Pope bee aboue the Councell or the Councell aboue the Pope. In which discention they haue not onely Doctor against Do∣ctor, but also Councell against Councell, and Pope against Pope, and Cardinall against Cardinall, as Con∣stance and Basill against Ferraria & Florence. Nicola∣us & Felix with thir Cardinals, against, Eugenius and and his Cardinals. But now let vs see what discorde he findeth in our Doctors. Luther condemneth the Pro∣testants, Car••stadians, Zwnglians & Caluinistes in the cause of the Sacramet, The more was his immoderate heate and bitter zeale to be blamed, and their Christian mo∣destie to be commended, which notwitstanding his o∣uermuch vehemency in maintayning his error, yet ac∣cepted hm alwayes as a brother. The corruption of the Scripture wherwith he chargeth Luther, is a slaunder of his owne, for Luther altred no wordes of Scripture, but declared his vnderstanding of them, when he said, Take bread and eate his is my body. And this is the on∣ly discorde that he can proue betweene the professors of the truth For it is a meere sophistry of the ambigui∣tie of the worde head of the Church, that maketh that shewe of contrarietie betweene the Magdeburgenses, Caluine, and vs, who in sence and meaning therof, doe Page  62 perfectly agree as I haue often shewed. And Bristowe cannot altogether deny where he derideth the Parlia∣ment Religion, and inconstancie of Protestants for chaunging the title of head into gouernour, and then expounding the gouernment by iniunction. Whereas in neither of bothe titles was any other meaning of the godly sorte in the time of King Henry, Kinge Ed∣warde or her Maiestie, then is contayned in that ex∣position. In deede Stephen Gardiner (as Caluine re∣porteth) at Ratisbone, abused the title of supreme head, not more wickedly thē absurdly to defend all Pa∣pistrie, which thē was not abolished by king Henry. And against that grosse errour of Gardiner writeth Cal∣uine and not against our vnderstanding of that tytle. But the Apologie prophecieth that shortely the Lu∣therans and Zwinglians should bee accorded, which is fulfilled in the accorde of the Protestantes and Puri∣tanes, who in the demaunde he sayth doe abhorre the tytle of supremacie, If I knewe whome he did meane by Puritanes, I might aunsweare him the better, but seeing hee maketh Protestantes and Puritanes mem∣bers of a diuision, If hee recken the Puritanes for such as bee no Protestantes, let them aunsweare for them selues. If he calles them Puritanes which de∣sire to haue the Church thorowly reformed, there is no such dissention betweene them, but that they all agree in the Articles of Faith, maintayne brotherly concorde one with an other, notwithstanding in di∣uersitie of opinions concerning the matters and manner of reformation. But what an impudent at∣tempte is chaunge of Religion, hee will shewe vs out of Luther, which writing againste the Anabaptistes Anno 1528. affirmeth that much Christianitie, and true Christianitie is vnder the Popedome. If chaunge of Religion bee so impudent an attempte, why were the Papistes finding Religion quietly establyshed by lawe, so impudent in Queene Maryes time, not only to attempte but also to bring to passe in deede an alte∣ration Page  63 of Religion. But the Popish Religion was true Christianitie by Luthers confession. I aunswere, Lu∣ther did meane nothing lesse by that confession, then to defende any parte of Popery to bee Christianitie, but writinge against the Anabaptistes which woulde haue all thinges abolyshed which the Papistes vsed, he sheweth that such partes and Articles of Christia∣nitie, which in generall confession and acknowledg∣ing of the authoritie of the Scriptures, the Papistes haue common with vs, are not therefore to bee re∣iected, because of them they haue bene abused. Other∣wise it is a poore Moiue vnto Popery, that Luther by these or any other woordes did euer minister vnto you.

The 17. Motiue is the 11. Demaunde.

The Catholike faith in England mightely planted & lightly * changed. S. Augustine the Apostle of Englishmen of what Religion and authoritie. Miracles for our whole Religion. Sainte Bede of our Religion. His story to be read of English∣men. Images and Crosses confirmed by miracle. Prophecyes and visions for our Religion.

The Catholike Faith was purely planted in this * Island by the Apostles euen in the raigne of Tiberius, as restineth Gildas, sixe hundreth yeeres before Au∣gustine came from Rome, bringing in deede with him the principall groundes of Christianitie, and with all, much Monkish superstition. But that the Religion of Papisrie differeth in as many pointes from that which Augustine planted, as Augustines doth from oures, I haue prooued abundantly, in aunsweare to Staple∣tons Fortresse, and breefely in the Table of diffe∣rences. And in such poyntes wherein wee differ from Augustine, I haue proued that Augustine differed Page  64 from the Apostles. As for his Miracles affirmed by the Saxons, and denied by the Briton writers, shall still remaine in controuersie for me. As also his prophecie so tearmed by the Saxons, which the Britons affime to be a threatening of crueltie, which he himselfe procu∣red to be executed on the poore Students & ••ergie of Bangor.

In the demaunde, Bristow would knowe of vs whe∣ther the Britains by Eleutherius were cōuerted to one faith, and the Saxons by Gregory and Augustine vnto an other. But I haue shewed before that the Britanes were not cōuerted by Elutherius, although perhaps the Church, which was more then an hundreth yeares of age in his tyme, might by him of charitie be confirmed in truth, or admonished to beware of such heretikes as then troubled the Church abroade. But I deny that E∣leutherius maynteyned all that superstition, which Au∣gustine brought in. And I affirme that •••• Britons church in Augustines tyme, differed in more things then in the celebration of Easter, from the Romish Churche, as I haue shewed in that confutation of Stapleton, euen by testimony of Bede him selfe: Although I will not deny, but there might be some corruption euen amonge the Britayns also, as there were that maynteyned the here∣sie of the Pelagians. Wherefore into that Catholike faith, which was first mightely planted in this lande by the Apostles of Christ, and not of Gregorie, through the most weightie argumentes taken of the auctority of the holy Scriptures, is this realme by the great mercie of God, returned, from the schime and heresie of An∣tichrist, & so I hope shall remaine, euen vntil the second comming of Christ.

The 18. motiue is the 3. demaund.

Going out. S. Optatus motiue. The churches practise is alwayes infallible. The vnitie and constancie of the Bishops * of England. Protestants doe decay and shall come to nothing.

Page  69 We like Optatus Motiue well, for going out of the * Church into any other faction. But it may not be drawn contrarie to his meaning against those which goe out of Babilon into Ierusalem. He saith, VVe must see who hath remained in the roote with the whole worlde. Verely not the Papists, which are departed from the doctrine of the Apostles which is the roote of the Church, by them planted in all the worlde. VVe must see who is gone foorth. which Bristow doth rightly referre to that say∣ing of Saint Paule. Discedent quidam à fide, Some shall departe from the Fayth. But who are those? They that teache the doctrine of deuilles, forbidding to marrye and commaunding to abstaine from meates. Nowe whether Papists or protestants be such, let the worlde iudge. Optatus will haue it farther considered, VVho is set in an other Chayre that was not before? Verely none so manifestly as the Pope, who sitteth in a Chayre, that none of the Apostles, nor Apostolike men, for many hundreth yeeres after Christe did knowe.

Againe, VVho hath sette an Aultar against the Aultar? who but the Papists, which haue erected the Sacrifice of the Masse, to ouerthrow the Aultar of the crosse of Christ? Finally, VVho hath made an ordination, the other before ordayned, beeing whole & sounde. Quis ordina∣tionem fecerit saluo altero ordinato. Which Bristow hath falsely trāslated thus. VVho hath placed Bishops there, where others were placed before which are yet aliue. As though it were a faulte, to putte out false Bishoppes, and to supply the roomes with true Bishoppes, where as Optatus meaneth of Heretikes, which are gone from true Byshoppes, and sette vppe Heretikes in schisme, the true Bishoppes still remayning as the Papistes did in Queene Maryes time, vntyll they had burned vppe almoste all.

As for the vnitie and constancy of the popishe de∣posed Prelates, which hee commendeth, is sufficient∣ly knowne to the worlde, which although they were all saue one obstinate in the beginning of her Maiesties Page  66 raygne, because they hoped by trayterous practises, foolish prophecies, & deuilish coniuration, to see an al∣teration shortly, aswel for religion, as also for the whole state of the common wealth, and withall had experi∣ence of the mercifulnes and compassion of the Kinges of Israell, so that they were not in feare of their liues, or any great hazard of their goods, yet had they all or the most part of them (such was their good constancy) reuolted from popery, and sworne against the Pope, in the raygne of Kinge Henrye and King Edward. As for the decaye of Protestants and professors of the truthe of Gods word, which the cold prophet foreseeth, by some trayterous deuise, whispered among his pewfel∣lowes at Louayne or Dowaye, it shall haue such successe and euent by Gods grace, as hitherto the like treaso∣nable practises haue obteyned, whiche alwayes, (Gods holy name be praysed therefore) hath turned to the confusion of Popery and the further spreading of the light of the Gospell.

In the demaunde, he vrgeth vs to shewe when the Ro∣manes went out of the truth, frsaking any company of Chri∣stians then liuing. This hath bene often shewed, that the Romanes though not all at once, yet by litle and litle, euen as the mysterie of iniquitie got strength, which began to worke in the Apostles tyme, haue de∣parted from the communion of other Christians. The first storye that maketh notable mention, is Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. of Victor which did cut him selfe from all the Churches of the East about a ceremonye, since which tyme, the Romane Bishops, by litle and litle, haue de∣parted vntill they made a generall apostasie and de∣fection, from the vniuersall Churche, condemning all the Christians in the world, except such as held of their particular schismaticall and hereticall Churche of Rome.

The 19. motiue is the 4. demaund.

Page  67
Risinge afterwarde. Saynt Ireneus and Tertullians mo∣tiue. *

He spendeth muche labour in vayne, to proue that * the first religion is the onely true religion, and that all sectes that arise after, are false, which we graunt most willingly with Irenaeus, Tertullian, and the Scripture it selfe. But he hath not one worde to proue, that our religion is of a later springe, then the Apostles, and therefore like an asse, he flyeth to their common stable, saying that Luther liued but yesterdaye, as though Luther were the firste author of our religion. Which if it be not as auncient as Christ and the Apostles, might easiely be confuted by the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles, contayned in the holye Scrip∣tures.

The 20. motiue is the 5. demaunde.

Beginninge with wondringe and gaynesaying of Chri∣stians * then in vnitye, vvhich is Saynte Irenaeus mo∣tiue.

Our religion of Christ reuealed in the fleshe, be∣gan with wondring and gaynesaying of Scribes, & Pha∣risees, * as it is manifest by the historye of the Gospell, Marke 1. yet was not the doctrine of Christ newe or straunge, but newely begonne to be restored, which was by them corrupted, so is the same now wondred at, and gaynesayde by their successors, the Papistes, but of true Christians it is nether wondred at, nor gaynesayde, contrariwise the heresie of Papistes, in manye poyntes was wondred at and gaynesayde by true Christians, whiche Bristowe saythe, we can not proue to be in anye one. For example, I will name one of the chiefest articles which they holde, name∣ly, the Popes supremacye, vpon which all the rest in

Page  68 Eusebius testifyeth, that when Victor Bishoppe of Rome, which was the first that challēged any suprema∣cie tooke vpon him to excommunicate the Churches and Bishops of Asia, about the celebration of Easter: His presumption was wondred at and gainesayde, not only by those Churches and their Bishops, but euen by others neere hand, as by Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in Fraunce, which sharpely reproued him therfore, more thē two hundreth yeeres after, when Zozimus & other Romish Prelates made claime to a kind of supremacy, in resisting appeale out of Africa, and for that pur∣pose, had counterfaited a decree of the Nicne coun∣cel: They were wondred at and gainesaid by the whole councell of Carthage. The like might I shewe, for wor∣shipying of Images, the reall presence transubstatia∣tion &c. But where hee sayeth that all heresies were wondered at and gainesaide, immediatly after they a∣rose, it cannot be proued. Nor that all was Heresie that was gainesaide by them that were in vnitie.

For the baptisme of Heretikes was gainesaide by Saincte Cyprian and all the Bishoppes of Africa, yet was it none heresie, that Infants might be sauedwith out receiuing of the communion, was gainesaid by In∣nocentius Bishop of Rome, and by S. Augustine and by all the church, that was at vnitie against the Pelagians. August, contra duas epistolas Pelag. ad Bonifacium. lib. 2. Cap 4. Yet was not that opinion then helde by the Pe∣lagians otherwise horrible Heretikes and heresie, but that which the Bishop of Roms & the rest of the known visible church did holde, was an eror whereby you may see, how truely the commaundement of Christe vnto Peter, to confirme his Brethren after his con∣uersion doth giue the Byshop of Rome' power neuer to be deceiued. nor to fall into error. And that the Church may be the piller and stay of trueth, although the chiefe members thereof, and generally all that are knowen to be members thereof may be taken in some particular error.

Page  69

The 21. Motiue is the 42. demaunde.

Vnsent. Orders. Protestants allowe better of our orders thē of their owne. *

Wheras Bristowe chargeth vs to be vnsent, it is no∣thing else, but a popish slaunder and petition of princi∣ple, * for we are called and sent ordinarily by the Church and elders of the same, to preach the word of God and to minister the Sacraments. Neither are we ordayned by a lay Prince, as he like a lewde Papist doth slaunder both our Christian Prince and vs. And although the Prince by letters Patents hath sent some to preach and visite the Churches of her dominions, yet shee hath doone it by authoritie of the worde of God and by ex∣ample of godly Princes, Iosaphat and other 2. Chro. 17. not taking vpon het to execute any ecclesiasticall fun∣ction, but according to her kingly authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall.

And where Bristowe saith we allowe better of their popish orders, then of our owne, secking as much as we can possible, to be consecrated by one of their or∣ders, except it be some such proude hypocrite as Bri∣stowe is, that so iudgeth and seeketh, it is a moste ab∣hominable lye. For withall our heart, wee abhorre, defie, detest and spit at your stinking greasie anti∣christian orders. Neither doth our Church receiue any of your execrable, ordering to minister in the Church before they haue solemnly by othe renounced your Antichriste, and publikely as well professed to imbrace all true religion, as Protested that in their conscienses they defy all papistry and other heresies. Although many godly men wishe, yet a more seuere discipline in examining and receiuing such as come our of your heresie, to serue in the Church of God.

Page  70

The 22. motiue is the 43. demaund.

Suceession. S. Optatus motiue. The Church is euerlasting & visible. S. Hieroms & S. Augustines motiue. the Church euer∣lasting. * The communion of the B. of Rome, to be kept of all Christians. Succession in the see Apostolike. Tertullians and Augustines motiues.

That the Church is euerlasting, Bristow neede not haue takē such paynes to proue, & that this continuance * is preserued by succession, is also to be confessed. But yt this succession is visible, & limited to any one sea of bi∣shops, it is false. For euen as he him selfe sayth it is neces∣sary that all Adams children to be come of Adam by a con∣tinuall pedegree of fathers and grandfathers and other proge∣nitors, euen vntill his time, and yet no one of Adams chil∣drē can deduce this pedegree by naming of all his pro∣genitors from Adam vnto his time so there is no doubt, but the Church hath had a perpetuall succession in the world, from ye beginning thereof, vntil this day, although she can not name a particular succession of persons in a∣ny one place, for all ages that are past. But euen as by the Scriptures we are taught, that Adam is our naturall father, although we can not name all our aūcestors that haue bene betwene vs and him: right so by the Scrip∣tures we are taught, that the Church is our heauenly mother, although we can not frame such tables of suc∣cession as the Papistes require vs to shew, which they can not performe them selues. For although they can name a number of Bishops, whereof some haue taught at Rome, some haue sitten and slept in their chayer at Rome, and some at Auynion, some haue played the de∣uill therein, an hundreth of the last being no more like to a score of the firste in doctrine and life, then God, whose children the first were, is like the deuill whose Page  71 derlings the last were: yet what is this to shewe a succession of their Church. And howe doth this proue them to be the true Churche: can not the Churche of Constantinople and other Churches in Greece, doe the like vnto this daye? Yet doe the Papistes count all them for heretikes and scismatikes. Whatsoeuer there∣fore Optatus, Hierom, Augustine, Tertullian, or any other haue written of succession of Bishops in the A∣postolike sees, they meane so large and so farre forth as they continue in succession of Apostolike doctrine. Otherwise woulde not Hierom haue embraced Arria∣nisme, because it was receyued by Liberius who sate in the Apostolike see of Rome, and coulde name his predecessors from Peter. Nor Optatus haue recey∣ued Eutychianisme, because it was defended by Di∣oscorus, which satte in the Euangelisticall see of Ale∣xandria, and coulde name his predecessors from S. Marke the disciple of S. Peter. Nether woulde Augu∣stine haue consented to Arrianisme, because it was mayntayned by Eulalius and Euzoius, Bishops of the Apostolike see of Antioche, althoughe they were able to shewe their succession by many Bishops, euen vnto S. Peter him selfe, who planted his chayer at Antioche, by all Papistes confession seuen yeares before he came to Rome. You see therefore howe farre the motiue of succession may drawe or driue any man to haue regard vnto it, euen as long, as there is succession of doctrine, as well as of place and person, and not longer, nor fur∣ther.

The 23. motiue is the 44. demaund.

Apostolike Church. The Communion of the Bishop of Rome to be kept of all Christians. Apostolike Church is the Romane * Church. Apostolike Church as the Romane is S. Augustines motiue. Succession of the Bishops of Rome, the motiue of Op∣tatus, S. Augustine and S. Irenaeus.

Page  72 This motiue in effect, is all one with the former, and in a maner so confessed by Bristow him selfe. But thus he takth his principle of their singing in the Masse, & our saying in the communion, of the creede, in which we confesse that we beleue one onely Catholike and A∣postolike Church. This one Catholike Church sayth Bristow is our Church that is Apostolike, because it agreeth with the faith of the Church of Rome, which is the sea of an Apostle, holding on to this day by succession, and to which was written an Epistle by an Apostle. I aunswer, it is not the po∣pish Romane Church, because that Church is departed from the vniuersal Church of Christ, planted by the A∣postles through out the worlde, and holdeth not on in succession of the doctrine of the Apostle, which did write that epistle to the Romanes. But Bristowes wise reasoning, is to be noted. S. Peter was an Apostle. That is true. he was the first Bishop of Rome. It is a great doubt, whether he euer came at Rome, and it is out of doubt by the Scriptures, that he taried not there so longe as the histories affirme, and last it is false that he was a Bi∣shop of a particular Church, which was an Apostle ouer all the world, and specially ouer the circumcision. There is a citye in the worlde named Rome. And that citye by the Scripture is the seat of Antichrist and the whore of Ba∣bylon. Apoc. 17. vers. 18. S. Paules epistle to the Romaines is extant. and euen that epistle will proue the Church of Rome at this day, to be not apostolicall but apostatical, as in many articles, so in the article of iustification. Rom. 3. vers. 28. Are not those causes why a Church is called Apo∣stolike, sayth Bristow? No verily but onely because it hol∣deth and mayntayneth the Apostolike doctrine, which if it doe in all necessary articles, then is it Apostolike, & hath succession and plantation of the Apostles, or els not, although it be gathered in such cities in which the Apostles haue preached, planted, and to whome they haue written. But Tertullian doth so define Apostolike Churches, sayth Bristow. I say it is vntrue, for Tertullian against newe heretikes, sendeth vs not to the emptye Page  73 chayres of the Apostles, which had written to such ci∣ties, but vnto the the testimony of their doctrine, recey∣ued from the Apostles, and continued vntill that time.

So he sendeth them that are in Achaia, to Corinthe. such as are in Macedonia to Philippi, those that are in Asia to Ephesus, & them which be neare Italy to Rome, from whence they of Africa had their authoritie, not by excellency of that Church aboue other Apostolike Churches, but by nearenes of place: Therfore he saith, Proxima est tibi Achaia? habes Corinthum.

Si non longè es à Macedonia, habes Philippos. Si potes in Asiam tendere, ha∣bes Ephesum, si autem Italiae adieceris, habes Romam, vn∣de nobis quae{que} auctoritas presto est statuta. Is Achaia nea∣rest vnto thee? thou hast Corinthe. If thou be not farre from Macedonia, thou hast Philippi. If thou canst goe into Asia, thou hast Ephesus. If thoulye neare to Italy, thou hast the Church of Rome from whence vnto vs also (in Africa) authoritie is setled nearer at hand. Ter∣tul. de praeser.
But Bristow sayth that the auncient fathers when there were many Apostolike Churches standing, they did principally and singularly direct men alwayes to the Church of Rome. This you see to be false, by the place of Tertul∣lian last cied. But that they did more often direct men to the testimony of the Church of Rome, it was for that by meanes of the Imperiall citie, it was more notori∣ous and best knowne. Otherwise it is a very lye of Bri∣stow, where he sayth, that when the fathers name the Apostolike church, they do meane the Romane church by excellency, as the Poet signifieth Vergil and the Phi∣losopher Aristotle. A like lye it is, that no Church re∣mayneth in the world founded by any of the Apostles, but onely Rome. For many Churches remayne to this day, that were planted by the Apostle Paule, who from Hierusalem to Illyricum filled all the contryes with the doctrine of the Gospell: of which many vnto this day continue in profession of Christianitie, beside all the Churches of India & AEthiopia, which were also plan∣ted by the Apostles Thomas and other. The more bea∣stly Page  74 is the blundering of this Bristow, who dreameth, that the councell of Constantinople the 1. which made this confession by the Apostolike Church, did not onely meane the Romane Church, but also none other but the Ro∣mane Church.

As though that councell could not distinguish the Catholike Apostolike Church, dispersed ouer all •••• face of the earth, from the particular Apostolike Church of Rome, which was but a member therereof: when the same councel gaue the like priuiledges of honor to the Church of Constantinople, which the Church of Rome had, reseruing but the senioritie to ye Church of Rome. And being called to a councel at Rome by the Princes letters, procured by Damasus Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of Italy & the West, they refused to come, as ha∣uing already by the Emperour of the East being gathe∣red to Constantinople, oncluded what they thought good to be decreed, Histor. trip. lib. 9, cap. 13. And in their epistle written to their fellow ministers Damasus, Am∣brose &c. gathered in councell at Rome, wherein they excused their refusall to come, they call the Church of Antiochia, seniorem & vere apostolicam Ecclesiam, the el∣der, & truly an Apostolike Church. The church of Ieru∣salem they call the mother of all Churches. Ep. Concil. Constanti. Hist. trip. lib. 9. cap. 14. Nether was it euer in their mind, to make the particular Church of Rome, the only Apostolike Church of the world, but onely a principall member consenting with the same. The succession of bi∣shops of Rome alledged by Irenaeus, Tertullian, Augu∣stine, Optatus doth nothing in the world defend the po∣pish bishops in their successiō vnto this day, for so much as they succeede not in doctrine, as well as in place. Ne∣ther doe we make any leape from Luther vnto the A∣postles, but prouing our doctrine to be the doctrine of the Apostles, we doubt no more of perpetuall succession thereof, then knowing our selues to be descended from Adam, we doubt whether we haue had a line all discent of progenitors vnto this time, that I may vse Bristowes Page  75 owne example, to declare that numbring of Bishops is no more necessary in the one, thē shewing our pedegrie in the other. Seing the question is not how many men, & in what places were professed this doctrine, but whe∣ther it be the same which •••• Apostles taught: but that can not better be proued, then by the writings of •••• Apostles.

The places cited by Bristow for succession out of I∣renaeus Tertullian Optatus, Augustine you shall sinde answered in my confutation of Stapletons fortres part. 2. cap. 1. & of Sanders rocke cap. 15. where also is answered the place of S. Luke cap. 22. of Christ praying that Peters faith might not faile.

The 24. motiue •• the 45. demaund.

The Romaines neuer chaūged their religion. S. Bede of our * religion, the Rmaine church his motiue, Protestāts be of ma∣ny old heresies. The Apostles were of our religion. Prayer for the dead vsed alwayes.

If the Romaines had not chaūged their religion since * their faith was cōmended by the Apostle, there should be no controuersie betwene vs & them. And if Bristow cā proue by the Apostles writing that he is of their reli∣gion, or that they were of the Popish religiō the strife is at an ende. How farre Bde was of your religion, I haue shewed in the answer to Stapletons fortresse. But he vr∣geth vs to shew, what Pope chaunged their religion, what tu∣mults rising in the worlde thereon, what Doctors withstoode it, what coūcels accused &c. which he saith they can shew in all innouatiōs both great & sinal, that euer by heretikes were at∣tēpted. What an impudent lyar is this Bristow to brag of that, which at this day is impossible to be don, by any mā liuing in the worlde. For of so many heretikes as are re∣hersed by Epiphanius & Augustine, not the one halfe of thē can be so shewed as Bristow like a blind bayard boa∣steth they can doe. But if we say the chaunge was not made al at once we must shew whē euery pece was alte∣red, as they do of our doctrin, of old taught by many old Page  76 heretiks, AErius denying praier for the dead &c. Whereof many are slaūders & lyes, the rest if we can not defend by Scriptures let them be takē for heresies. To the pur∣pose, we haue often shewed and are ready daily to shew, the beginning of many of their heresies, & errors, as of the Popes supremacy in Victor, of prayer for the dead in the Montanists, of their crossing in the Valentinians, of images in the Gnosikes and Carpocratians, and so of a great many other errors, which are contrary to the holy Scriptures, by which we first reproue them of falshood, and as stories serue vs, we open their beginnings. And wheras Bristow without all shame, affirmeth that prayer for the dead was vsed alwayes, & citeth Irenaeus among other for his auctor he sheweth nothing but impudency matched with his heresie, for there is no worde in Ire∣neus, to proue that prayer for the dead was vsed of any godly man of his time.

Tertullian a Montanist is the first that maketh any mention of prayers for the dead, & only in such bookes as he wrote when he was an heretike. Whereas Augu∣stine sayth Ep. 119. That ye church of God nether appo∣ueth, nor keepeth secret, nor doth such thinges as be a∣gainst the faith, and good maners, it is to be vnderstan∣ded of such things, as the church knoweth to be against the faith. For of some thinges the church may be igno∣rant, as Augustine confesseth in his retractations lib. 2. cap. 18.

Vbicun{que} in his libris commemoraui ecclesiam non ha∣bentem maculam aut ruga non sic accipiendum est, quasi iam sit, sed quae praeparatur vt sit, quando apparebit etiam glorio∣sa. nunc enim propter quasdam ignorantias & infirmitates mebrorum surum, habet vnde qutidie tota dicat: Dimitte nobis dbita nostra. Wheresoeuer in those bookes I haue made mention of ye church, not hauing spot or wrinckle, it is not to be takē, as though she were so now, but which is prepared that he may be when she shall appeare also glorious: For now because of certaine ignorances and infirmities of her members, euen the whole church hath cause to say euerie day, forgiue vs our trespasses.
Page  77 Notwithstanding the watchmen therefore prophecied by Esay, continually geuing warning vpon the walles a∣gainst the inuasion of open enemies, and blasphemous heretikes, yet many hypocrites haue crept into the church secretly, and vnder shew of pietie, haue shewed many errors and superstitions, while the mysterie of mi∣quity wrough the full manifestation and Apostasie of Antichrist. In the demaunde Bristow denyeth that any Pope did erre, although I haue shewed both out of sto∣ries, S. Hierom, the Pope Damasus, and the generall councels, the contrarie. But admitting they did erre, yet (sayth he) they erred not in such matters as the Prote∣stantes doe now charge the Pope & Romaines withall. Whereto I answer, that against that blasphemous prin∣ciple of theirs, that the Pope can not erre, we first bring in those examples of Popes, that were heretikes & for their time altered religion like heretikes in such mat∣tes as we both confesse to be errors. Then this being obteyned, that the Pope is not priuiledged from error, the matters in controuersie wherewith we charge the Pope, are to be examined only by the auctoritie of the holy Scriptures and thereby to be decided.

The 25. motiue is the 9. demaunde.

The conuersion of Heathen nations. Caluines Legates in * India. The discorde of Protestantes. Iesuites Fryers prea∣ching in India. Miracles for our whole religion. The A∣postles were of our religion. The church is euerlasting and visible.

All nations that were at the first cōuerted to the true faith of Christ were conuerted by the Apostles, whose * faith and doctrine we hold, and will proue by their wri∣tings that we holde none other. As for the argument of ryers preaching in India & miracles wrought so fa. re Page  78 hence, with such great conuersion of the Indians vnto Popery, if it were true, yet proueth it no more then the preaching and miracles of the false Apostles Phil. 1. and the conuersion of the Gothes and Vandalls Crepides &c. by the Arrians and other nations by Nestorius &c. doth proue those false Apostles to be true Apostles, or the heresies of the Arrians &c. to be true doctrine. Wherefore not the Papistes, but the Apostles of Christ, were his witnesses, vnto the vttermost places of the earth. But of this matter of cnuersion, and all thinges conteyned, you may reade somewhat more at large in mine aunswere to Stapletons fortresse, where the same is handled. part. 1. cap. 16. & 17.

The 26. Motiue is the 18. 13. and 14. demaund.

By what religion hath Idolatrie bene destroyed. Pro∣phecies for our religion. Protestantes be possessed with de∣uills. * Churches confirmed by miracles. Deuills expelled by re∣liques. Deuills are in heretikes. S. Hierome of our religion. The martyrs of our religion. Vigilantius aliue againe in Prote∣stants. S. Augustine & Chrysostome of our religion. The honor and vertue of Sainctes reliques. S. Augustines motiue for which Christ is to be beleued. Our religion an inuincible mo∣tiue to forsake idolls and beleue in Christ, who is to be beleued for the vertue of the signe of his crosse, which working mira∣cles, was the motiue of Lactantius. The reall presence of Christ in the sacrament. The crosse and the masse confirmed by S. Bernard, in Italy. S. Cyprian of our religion. The Iewes religion chaunged into ours by Christ &c.

In this motiue is much babling, but no matter at all. * The summe of that he would proue is this. That Popery is not idolatrie, as we charge it because by Popery Ido∣latrie hath bene destroyed. Although this argument is naught, because one kinde of Idolatrie may destroy an Page  79 other, yet it is falsely affirmed, that Poperie hath de∣stroyed all idolatry. That Popery hath destroyed idola∣try: Bristow wil proue by three examples, the one of the reliques of Sainctes, and the honor of them, the other of the signe of the crosse and the honorthereof, and the last by the reall presence in the Sacrament, which he calleth his Lord and his God. But our Lord and God is in heauen according to the Psalm. 115. The destruction of idolatrie by Christ in deede was prophecied there∣fore the Pope setting vp and mainteyning as grosse ido∣latrie almost as euer was any of the Paganes, sheweth him selfe to be a verie Antichrist. But to the purpose Hierom lib. 28. in Isa. cap. 65. sayth that the heretikes in Fraunce were possessed with the deuill which could not abide the might and whips of the holy ashes. If he spake this against Vigilātius, & other godly men, which repro∣ued the immoderate honoring of reliques and other su∣perstitions, he spake of his owne iudgement, and not of the iudgement of the church. For he only of all writers of his time, counted Vigilantius an heretike as he did Ruffinus also, which yet is takē for as good a Catholike as he. It is knowne how he taunteth and scoffeth at Au∣gustine. Wherefore his censure is not sufficient to make Vigilantius opinion heresie, nor them heretikes which were of his iudgemēt. But admit this iudgement of Hie∣rom to be sounde, yet was not the honor and estimation of reliques which he defendeth, against Vigilantius the same, which is in Poperie, but much differing there frō. For thus he writeth ad Rpanum contr. Vigilant.

Nos au∣tem non dico martyrum reliquias, sed ne solem quidem & u∣nam, non Angelos non Archangelos non Cherubin, non Sera∣phim, & omne nomen quod nominatur & in presenti saeculo & in futuro colimus & adoramus, ne seruiamus potius crea∣turae quā creatori qui est benedictus in saecula. But we wor∣ship and adore. I say not the reliques of the martyrs, but not the sunne & the moone, not the Angells not Arch∣angels, not Cherubin, not Seraphim, & euery name that is named both in this world, and in the world to come Page  80 least we should serue the creaturerather then the crea∣tor which is blessed for euer.

By this you may see that the honor they gaue to re∣liques was but a reuerent estimatiō of them, for Christs sake, whose seruaunts the Martyrs were, and a lesse ho∣nor then they gaue to the Sunne and the Moone, as is manifest by his gradation, and consequently no religi∣ous worship. As the Papistes vse and mayntayne of the reliques, not of Saynctes, but oftentymes of deuills in∣carnate, of beasts and all manner of fayned bables. Ne∣ther is there any thing more monstrous in popery, then their shameles fayning of infinite reliques. That Augu∣stine writeth that deuils were tormented and expelled, at the memories or burialls of the martyrs, where som∣times idolls were worshipped, it proueth that idols were destroyed by Poperie. For if God wrought miracles at such places, where the bodies of his Martyrs slept to cō∣firme the faith, for which they died, doth this make any thing for Popery? But the same Augustine to the Maudaurenses that were Pagans, and other heathen men vseth the argument of the greater honor and re∣uerence doone by Kings and Emperours at the tombes and memories of the Saintes and Martyrs, and of mi∣racles wrought at the same places, to shew the power of Christe to the confusion of idolatrie. This wee graunt, but how doth Popery ouerthrowe Idolatrie? There reuerence although in sōe respects superstitious, was far from popish Idolatrie, of worshipping of Saints, Images, bones, &c, as wee haue shewed euen now out of Hierom the most eger defender of those vses and ab∣uses in his time: The miracles approued none other doctrine, then the matyrs died for, who died for none other doctrine, but such as is contayned in the holy Scriptures, in which Poperie hath no ground. The like I say of the storie of the bodie of Babycas the martyr, in presence wherof, the oracle of Apollo could not speake. But Chrysostom to draw mn from all kind of idolatrie, sent them from reliques. In Gen. Hom. 15, Nay he sent them to Page  81 the churches and houses of prayer, & to the graues of the martyrs not to worship them, as Papistes doe, but by such things to receaue blessing and to kepe them selues from being entāgled with the snares of the deuill, while they be put in mind of the vertue of the martyrs, to fol∣low their godly cōuersation. And albeit there were some superstitiō in that regard of martyrs troubles & memo∣ries, as in that age there was, yet doth it not follow, there was all Popery, nor such grosse idolatry as Papistes doe commit with their counterfait rehques. Finally the mi∣racles wroght by God at the dead bodies of the Saincts, might wel be vsed by Augustin, Chrysostom, & Theodo∣ret against the Gētills, asan argument to ouerthrow their idolatrie, euen as the example of the miracles wrought by God at the dead body of Elizeus against the idola∣trous Israelits Reg. but it followeth not therof, that idols should be made of their lawes, by worshipping them as the Papists do. For ye bones of Elizeus were not for that miracle takē out of his graue & shined in gold, deuided into many churches worshiped, licked, and kissed, as the Popish guise is. The same aunswere I make concerning miracles wrought by God with the signe of the crosse, which was the motiue of Lactantius. I say they proue not that the signe of the crosse should be worshipped, no more then the miracles wrought by God, with the bra∣sen serpēt, were any cause why the Israelits should wor∣ship the brasen serpent. Reg.

And as touching the blessed Sacrament, which Bri∣stow blasphemously calleth his Lord and God, although the reall presence and transsubstantiation were graun∣ted, forasmuch as the Papists thē selues affirme the Sa∣crament to consist of accidents as the signe, but no ac∣cidēts are God or in God: If any miracles were wrought by God at the celebration therof, as Augustine and Cy∣prian seeme to auouch, yet neither is the reall presence proued by those miracles, nor they tryed to be Papists, for writing of such miracles, of which if any man will see more, let him resorte to mine aunswere vnto Hes∣kins Page  82lib. 1. cap. 24. & lib. 3. cap. 42.

Vnto the storie of S. Bernards life we geue no credit, as to a counterfait fable, and as litle to the reporte of M. Poynts, i his booke of the reall presence testifying the casting out of many deuils, by vertue of the same sacra∣ment. Finally it is alltogeather false, that he sayeth, the Iewes religion was chaynged by Christ into Popery. For the sacrifice of Christes death, against which the sacri∣fice of the Popish masse is blasphemous, hath taken a∣way all sacrifices & ceremonies of the law. Heb. 9. Con∣cerning the Altar which Christians haue, whereof they haue no power to cae which serue the Tabernacle, Heb. 13. mine aunswere is against Heskins. lib. 3. cap. 60. where that text & argument is handeled of purpose.

The 27. motiue is the 35. demaund.

Vnity of the church a motiue to beleue in Christ. The discord * of Protestantes, the inconstancy of Protestantes.

Our Sauiour Christ praieth that his disciples may be * one in God & him theyr redeemer. And this vnitye all Protestantes retaine, notwithstanding diuersity of opi∣nion in one article, & any contention about ceremo∣nies. Euen as the Apostles were one, in one God and Christ, although there was variaunce about Circumci∣sion & ceremonies. Ciprian & Cornelius, the Romayne church & the church of Carthage, were at vnitye in Christ, although the one of them erred in the sacramēt of baptisme. So were Hierome, & Augustine, allthough they mayneteyned contrary opinions about Peters dis∣sembling & translation of the Scripture. From this verily I except such schiinaties, as delight in contencion, which haue allwayes bene against the true church. As for the vnity of the Papistes, seeing it is not in the doctrine of Christ, it proueth no more, that they are those for Page  83 whom Christ prayed, then the vnity of the Mahome∣tistes which for these thousand yeares, haue kept grea∣ter vnity then the Papists, whose church hath bene rent a sunder into so many heades as there haue bene Popes at once, and that very often and for many yeares toge∣ther there haue bene Pope against Pope, coūcel against coūcell, Doctors against Doctors, orders against orders, Canonists against Diuines, dissēting in articles of faith, as of the Popes supremacy, of original sinne, of transub∣stantiation &c. Wherefore Christian vnity, is as vntruly denyed vnto vs, as falsely challenged vnto them what∣soeuer he prateth of Lutherans, Zwinglians, Caluinists, Protestants and Puritans.

The 28. and 29. motiues are conteined in the 34. demaund.

Iudges infallible in cases of controuersie. The churches * iudgemēt is alwayes infallible. Obedience of Catholiks to their superiors both ecclesiasticall and temperall. Trinitaries.

Bristrow braggeth that their church hath iudges in∣fallible in cases of controuersie, and ours hath not. But * who be their iudges? The Pope or the generall coun∣cell? Whether soeuer of these be, nether is irrefragable. For both haue bene controlled and found fault withall, as I haue shewed before, and they them selues are toge∣ther by the eares, whether of these is irrefragable, be∣cause the councell hath deposed the Pope, & the Pope hath not obeyed the councell, as it is manifest betwene Eugenius the 4. and the councell of Basil. How infalli∣ble the churches iudgement is and alwayes hath bene, it serueth not the Romish synagogue, vntill she proue her doctrine to be agreable to the Scriptures, which seeing she neither can doe, nor dare abyde the triall of them, she sheweth plainly, that she is not the church of Christ. As for the auctoritie of synodes such as that of the Apostles was, which determined the controuersy Page  84 by auctority of the holy Scriptures, Protestāts do gladly acknowledge, how necessary it is for the church to de∣cide controuersies and do willingly submit them selues thereto. The subiection of Papists to their indges, doth no more proue their religion to be true, then the obe∣dience of the Mahometistes to their superiors, both in cases of religion, and of the common wealth, doth iusti∣fie their sect to be the religion of God. What Trinitaries & other sectaries be in Polonia, or elswhere, that wil not submit themselues to any auctority, as they are no parte of our church, so we haue no cause to excuse or defende them. In the demaunde, Bristow complaineth of an vn∣learned Christian, which hath bene suffered to write a vaine libell against the auctority of the church of God, which is a vaine lye, for there is no true Christian lear∣ned or vnlearned, which will hold against the church of God, so lōg as she is directed by the word of God, as the true church is in all matters necessarie vnto saluation. But perhaps the vnlearned Christian hath challenged the church of Rome to approue her doctrine by aucto∣rity of Gods word. Which because the Papists dare not attēpt, Bristow requireth I can not tel what approbation & priuiledge of the sayd libell, to shew a bad shift better then none at all, why they wil not answere it. For Popish libells that are but cast abroad in writing, we require no approbation nor priuiledge, & dare not the Papists con∣fute a printed libell before it haue approbation & priui∣ledge?

The 29. motiue.

Protestantes them selues take thinges vpon our churches credit. The churches auctority. S. Augustines motiue. VVhat * Sor. pture the Protestants deny.

Although we did receaue such things, as he reherseth vpon their churches credit, it followeth not, that theirs * is the true church, for we receaue nothing from them, without dew exammation. The Scriptures we receaue Page  85 not, vpon the only credit of the Popish church, but vpon the credit of ye vniuersall church of Christ. The creedes, articles of doctrine, tearmes of person trinitie, consub∣stantiality, Sacraments &c. we receaue, because they be consonant to the Scriptures, & not because the church of Rome tellth s they be true. As for the auctoritie of the church, which he sayth was S. Augustines motiue, to beleue the Gospell, was not a single or sole motiue, but a commotiue or an argument that with other argumēts did moue him, for the sayth not moueret but commoueret: and so it is with vs. Prouided alwayes that the Popish church be no taken for that Catholike or vniuersall church. VVhat then (sayth Bristow) was it the Protestants church whereof Augustine ment? or can you hold laughter when the question is asked? No verily, for when the Pro∣testants church, that it is now so called in this age, like as it was called the Homousians church in Augustines time, is a member of the Catholike vniuersall church of Christ, and so proued by the holy Scriptures, it is a ridiculous thing to doubt whether it were the popish church which is but an hereticall assembly, departed from the vniuersall church long since Augustines de∣parture out of this life. But Bristow will proue, that the church at whose commanndement Augustine beleued the Gospell, was not the Protestāts church, because that church commaunded him to beleue the bookes of To∣by, Iudith. VVisdome, Ecclesiasticus, & the Machabees to be canonicallscripture, which the church of Prote∣stantes doth denye. But what it Augustine were decei∣ued? to thinke he hearde the voice of the Catholike church when he did not, shall the Protestantes churche be condemned? S. Hierome who if the church of Rome were the Catholike church, was more like to heare her voice, because he was a Priest of the church of Rome, telleth vs a cleane contrary tale. For thus he writeth, In praefat. in Prouerbia.

Sicut ergo Iudith, & Tobiae, & Machabaeorum libros legit quidem ecclesia, sed eos inter Canonicas scripturas non recipit: sic & haec duo volumina leg atPage  86ad aedificationem plebis, non ad auctoritatem ecclesiastico∣rum dogmatum confirmandam. Therfore as the Church in deade readeth the bookes of Iudith and Tobias and of the Macchabees, but yet she receiueth them not a∣mong the Canonicall scriptures, so she may reade these two Bookes (speaking of the booke of Wisedome and Ecclesiasticus) for the edifying of the common people, but not for confirming the authoritie of Ecclesiasticall doctrine.
Doth the Church of Protestants iudge other∣wise of these Bookes, then that Church which thus in∣structed Hierome? What then? I must say as Bristowe doth, S. Hierome and the Catholike Church in his time of our Religion. The Church of Rome now is of an other iudgement, then the Church of Rome was then, ergo it is not now that it was then. But whereas Bristowe chargeth vs to to deny, or at least to leaue in∣different the Canticles of Salomon. The Epistle to the Hebrues, The Epistles of Saint Iames, S Peter, S. Iohn, Sainct Iude, with the Apocalips, it is a diuelish slaunder, as God knoweth and the wold can beare vs witnesse.

The 30. Motiue is the 36. and 37. demaŭd.

Storehouse of the Scriptures. Tht Iewes Religion chaunged into ours by Christ. The Churches learning and wisdome. The Church store. S. Irenaeus motiue. *

Bristowe demaundeth whether the Popish Church receiuing the Scriptures of the olde and newe Testa∣ment * from Christ, hath not kept them faithfully with∣out adding, minishing, or corrupting. I aunswere no, for the Popish church receiueth none of Christ, but the catholike church of Christ. Againe the popish Church hath added whole bokes to the canon which the chuch of the Iewes neuer receiued, nor the vniuersall Church of Christ. But those Bokes (saith Bristow) hath the Pro∣testants church robbed vs of, wc are allowed by appro∣ued Councels. You heard in the last motiue Hieromes Page  87 iudgement of those bookes, whervnto agreeth the coū∣cel of Laodiea cap. 59. Augustine receiueth the boks of Macchabees but with condition of sobrietie in the rea∣der or hearer. Aug consec. pist. Gaudent. cap. 13. Last of al the popish church, either of fraud or negligence, hath corrupted an exceeding great number of textes of the scripture in her vulgar latine translation, wc she receueth as only authentical. The very first promise of the gospel is corrupted and falsyfied. For wheras the trueth is Ip∣sum contret caput ••••, the same seede shall broose thine head, the popish translation hath Ipsa the same woman. Gen 3. Wheras he saith, the Protestants church for this 100. yeeres (as we cōfesse our selues) occupyed no bible, nor had any thing to do with the scriptures, he lieth out of al measure, for the church of Christ hath alwaies had the scriptures, & in euery nation where it was, it had thē in their mother toung. How many Bibles are yet extant written in parchmēt. 3 or 4. hundreth yeeres past in the English toung, beside other in the Saxon language. The like are to be proued to haue ben in al places where the Churches were gathered as in France, Italy, Bohemia. &c. Finally, whatsoeuer he bableth of their Church to be the store house of the Scriptures & trueth, the like may be said of the greke Church which they cōdemne as schismaticall & hereticall, therefore this storehouse is no Motiue, to proue the Romish Sinagogue to be the church of God. In the 37. demaund he asketh whether as wel Protestants as other, doe not condemne the old writers errors & other heresies of Heretiks which made great shew of scriptures by the rule of ye popish churchs faith. I answere, the Protestants out of the scriptures, do & can disproue such shew of scriptures made by mai∣sters of error, & are no more moued by the popish chur∣ches authoritie, then the Apostles were moued by au∣thoritie of the Iewish Synagogue, to reproue all the grosse Idolatrie and snperstition of the Gentiles. Ther∣fore the popish Church is not Depositorium Diues, that rich storehouse of trueth, which was S. Ireneus motiue.

Page  88

The 31. motiue is the 41. demaund.

Sending and teaching of all diuine truth. Caluins errors a∣bout the trinitie. The ignoraunce of Protestants. Such was Iew elr ignoraunce also, that Christe is a prieste according to * his Godhead. Vniuersities of Heretiks, & Catholikes. Degrees taken in Vniuersities of Heretiks are ad nihillated. The igno∣rance of Protestants, the cause partely why there be so many Atheistes in England. The Churches learning, wisdome, and continuance. S. Augustines Motiue.

This Motiue conteineth nothing but an immede∣rate arrogant bragge of their studying and teaching of * trueth, with the great learning of their Doctors and Vniuersities: and a proude disdamefull vpbraiding of our Doctors and vniuersities, of much ignorance and lacke of learning. Which comparison if it had beene vttered by a man of excellent learning, had beene the lesse odious, but beeing made by such a blinde Baiarde and blockheadded asse, as is this Bristowe, it is moste intollerable. Caluiue (saith he) through ignoraunce, erred about the Trinitie, saying, That Gods Sonne is〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉that is God of him selfe, whereby it followeth in∣euitably that there be two Gods. For this slaunderous and foolish cauill, he citeth Institut. lib. 1. cap. 13. Num. 23. &c. where is no such word nor matter, but a confutation of Heretikes, that denyed the very essens of the deitie of Christ, he cyteth also Geneb. de trinit. lib. 1. pa. 43. Where if the woorde 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 be vsed, as I know not whether it be, yet vndoutedly no such thing is ment thereby as Bristow bableth. For 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 maye signifie him that is very God himselfe, although begotten of God the father, euē as Gregory Nazianzene in his Booke of the holy Ghost, or De theologia lib. 5. calleth the holy Ghost 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 the Lorde himselfe, whereof it followeth not that there be two or three Lords, or that the holy ghost proceedeth not from the father and the sonne. Likewise he calleth him 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉. Light it selfe and Life: that is very light and very life, and yet he denyeth not Page  89 that he is light, proceeding from light. Wherefore this is an vnlearned cauil against Caluine, who more soūd∣ly, substantially & learnedly hath written of the blessed trinitie, then all the Dunces, Aquines, Alberts, & the whole rablement of Scholemen, of whome Bristow so vainely doth brag, were euer able to attaine vnto, who with their sophistrie and barbarousnes haue rather dar∣kened, then sette foorth the cleere light of those most excellent and diuine misteries. The like impudent ca∣uil, he bringeth against M. Iewel, whome no man I think without laughter can read, to be charged with ignorāce by blūdering Bristow, for affirmiug Christ to be a prieste according to his deitie, whōe the Apostle expresly saith, by his eternall spirit to haue offred himself. Heb. 9. ve. 11. As for the comparisons betweene the Vniuersities of Papistes and ours, how vaine it is, all that be learned & of indifferent iudgement can testifie. And concerning degrees and ciuil titles of dignitie taken in our vniuer∣sities, beeing nothing else but testmonies of their lear∣ning which receiue them, we think them better beeing confirmed by the Princes authoritie, from whom all ci∣dignities euen by ciuil law are deriued, then such as are either giuen or confirmed by the Popes leaden Bulles. The Atheists & other vnreligious mindes in England, are not nourished by the ignorance of the Protestants, but detested by their godly and learned iudgement. But if where there be most Atheists there is greatest igno∣rance, then euen in Italy & at Rome vnder the Popes nose, where be most Atheists of any regiō almost in the world, is greatest ignorance. Where open blasphemies are as common, yea oftentimes in the Popes mouth, as the praises of God are among true christians. What tra∣uller in Italy is ignorant of this, whether he be prote∣stant, Papist, or Newter. Last of all, if the Chuches wis∣dome, learning, & continuance, was S. Augustines mo∣tiue, the folly, barbarousnes, & late shining of the popish Church, is a motiue to make vs think that it is not the church of Christ. For Bristowes brags are not sufficient Page  90 to carry away all credit of learning to popish doctors & Vniuersities, whose orders and readings he doth the ra∣ther commend to be so excellent, that men wc knew him of late, with periury to haue taken degrees in Philoso∣phie, should not meruaile that he is so sudenly transfor∣med into so great a doctor of diuinitie, euē by once hea∣ring the cause of Diuinitie, which he supposeth none of our doctors knoweth what it meaneth, such a goodly matter is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 whereby a manne maketh moste account of that he hath learned last. But albeit the que∣stion be not of learning but of trueth, yet if it would please the Papists to try the learning of our doctors & Vniuersities, vnder indifferent iudges, I doubt not but they should be found equall vnto theirs, that I say not in many things they should be found superiour.

The 32. motiue is the 22. demaund.

Aunuall celebrating of Christes mysteries. The churches * seruice is to be imbraced. Christ is to be beleued for the scrip∣tures of the olde testamēt as they be vnderstood in the church. Ember daies or Enper dayes, whichy our blinde Apostles doe boldely say to haue ben the Popes leman. The Martirs were of our religion. Saints dayes laide downe by protestants as our Ladyes daies, S. Laurence day, the assumption of our Lady. The Churches and seruie of heretikes to be rfrained in paine of damnation. Against communiating with them. An admoniti∣on to priestes that say the now seruice. Heretikes are idolaters, and heresies are idols. The yeare of Iubely 1575. Pilgrimage. The sermons of Heretikes not to be heard, their bookes not to be read. Christ to be beleeued for the vertue of the signe of his Crosse, which workesh miracles. Visions for our religion.

The Annuall celebration of Christes misteries, by dumb ceremonies and readings not vnderstood of the * ignorant people, although there were no heresie in the popish seruice nor no sufficient motiues to imbrace the popish synagogue as the church of Christ, if the Scrip∣tures and the figures of the lawe, better applyed, then Page  91 they be in all the lumpe of the popish solemnities, they would procure small credit to our Sauiour Christ: but rather the scorning and derision of Turkes, Iewes, and Pagans. As for the blind commētaries of the Iewes, out of which he magineth we haue all our vnderstanding of the old testament, how litle we trust in prophecyes of Christ, may be seene in the written commentaries of Caluine, Musculus, & such other. The names of a great number of the solemne feastes, (as Bristow sayth) doth argue in deede the Papists ether to haue inuented thē, or to haue abused them, as Candelmas, Corpus Christi day &c, but that the same were inuented by that aunci∣ent Church, wc celebrated the natiuity, resurrection, as∣cention of Christ & cat is vtterly vntrue. For your owne Durand testifieth, that many of them were of late Popes institutiō, wc were of another factiō, but no: of the church of Christ. Howe vaine a brag it is, that the martyrs were of the Papistes religion, because they keepe holy their dayes, I leaue to be answered with childrens laughture.

But it is a great offence I weene, that Protestants haue put downe most of the Saincts daies, & namely S. Law∣rence his day, & all our Ladies daies, assumption & all. If a man shoulde aske you wherefore you keepe not S. A∣brahams day, cōsidering he was the father of the faith∣full, nor S. Esayes &c: what could you answer? As for the Ladies daies wc he complaineth to be put downe by vs, namely the feasts of her conception, natiuitye, visitation & assumption, the Church could be without some of thē more then 12 hundreth yeares. For Vrbanus the 6. insti∣tuted the feast of the visitation of some called the new found Lady daye about the yeare of Christ 1380. as the very popishe seruice of that daye confesseth in the first lessō. The feast of the natiuity, is not much elder as both the lessons & Durand do acknowledge, which affirmeth that one Fulbertus a Bishop Cardinal made part of the seruice. That the feast of the assumption can not be very auncient, it appeareth not onely by the barbarous hymnes in the popishe Churche that daye, but also by Page  92 the lessons taken out of Bede, by whiche it is mani∣fest, that the Church coulde be without that goodly so∣lemnitie, more thn 700. yeares after Christ, as a great number of other festiuities which borrow their lessons out of Bede, doe shew sufficiently, that the popish ser∣uice is nether so auncient nor so vniuersall, as the Pa∣pistes most impudently doe affirme. As for the feast of the conception of the Virgine Marye, is not full one hundreth yeare olde, being decreed by Sixtus the 4. in great despight of the Dominike Fryers, which did both preach and wright against it.

Wherefore there is no such intollerable fault assuredly committed, in omitting such festiuities, as Bristow cry∣eth out, nether we lacke proper dayes of our Ladye, as he sayth, whereby he bewrayeth the grosse Idolatrie of Papistes, which are not content to honor our Sauiour Christ in his Sainctes, but the Sainctes must haue pro∣per dayes dedicated to their honor alone, and vtterly seperated from the honor of Christ. For it satisfieth not Bristow, that we keepe holy the annunciation & purifi∣cation of Mary, because the one of them sayth he, is the conception, the other the presentation of Christ. But Papistes keepe her natiuitie, visitation, conception, and assumption, which are the proper dayes of our Lady. I passe ouer that he affirmeth the assumption of her body as a certaine truth, which the very popish lessons songe on that festiuitie, leaue in doubt, and incline rather to the contrary opinion, that the was assumpted onely in soule. Likewise that he calleth her the Lady of Saincts and Angels, which title the holy Scriptures doe not on∣ly not giue vnto her, but plainly denye. For there is but one Lord Eph. 4. both of men and of Angels, which doth not onely exclude all other Lordes of the masculine gender, but much more all Ladyes, and generally sur∣mounteth all principalitie, power, Lordship, and euery name that is named, both in this world and in the world to come. Eph, 1. 2. The Virgine Mary is therefore no La∣dy of Sainctes and Angells, but a fellow seruaunt of God Page  93 with them. Luke 1 48. Apoc. 22. 9. What excellency soeuer she hath of Gods gift, more then any of them. That we keepe no solemnitie of S. Lawrens, it is not for any con∣tempt of his holines, nor for any worship of Iohn Bap∣tist and the Apostles, that we solemnize their memo∣ries. But therein the Churche vseth her libertie as in things indifferent. Whereas Bristow doubteth not that if any of vs would once be present at the reuerent solemne doing of the popish Catholike seruice, especially at Christmas, Easter or such like time, but it would melt our stny harts with ioye, &c. He bewrayeth many poyntes of follye at once. For first many thousands of vs, haue bene present, and with greefe of hart haue seene and beheld the doing of those Idolatrous solemnities. Secondly he declareth, how he him selfe is caried away with piping, singing, sensing, and swinging in copes &c, so that he can not discerne the true worship of God, which is in spirite and veritie, from the carnall and counterfeit solemnities of Idolatry and superstition. Last of all, how childishly doth he referre all Catholike solemnitie to the vaine pompe vsed onely in great and Cathedrall Churches, when a thowsand pa••shes beside in the poore contrey townes, haue all their trashe so beggerly and rudely set forth, that the Papistes them selues laughe them to scorne. The rest of this motiue is spent in disswading Papists from learning our seruice, or sermons, or reading of our bookes, by which it is plain, that he so much mistrusteth his cause, that he dare not once permit his disciples to inquire of it, or to heare any thing that may be sayd to the contra∣ry. As for popishe priestes that say the newe (as he ter∣meth it) seruice, I woulde they woulde followe his councell to saye it no more. That it is not lawfull for Christians to communicate with heretiks, or Idolaters, it is a playne case: But it shall neuer be proued that they be heretikes, which teach nothing but the doctrine of holy Scripture, or that they are Idolaters, which are ready to giue their liues rather then to worship Idolls. But the yeare of Iubely is a greate motiue for greate Page  94 fooles to embrace popery, which Iubely Pope Boniface the 8. did first institute in the veare of our Lord 1300 by apish or rather deuelish imitation of the fathers of the old testament for filthy lukers sake, beside the horrible blashemye of full remission of sinnes graunted by the Pope in that yeare, which is denied to be giuen by the death of Christ. As for the Iubely, which Bristow spea∣keth of anno 1575. is of a later institution ordeyned to be kept euery 25. yeare, because it was to long for the Pope to tary vntill the hundreth and 50. yeare, as Bo∣niface appoynted. This is the antiquitie of that Iubely pardon, and pilgrimage.

The miracle which S. Augustine reporteth of Inno∣centia that was warned in her dreame, to desire the first woman which she did meete, returning from baptisme at Easter, to signe her breast with the signe of the crosse, on which was a canker, for cure of which she had longe prayed vnto God: declareth in deede the vertue of Christ, which can vse all meanes to worke health where it pleaseth him, but nothing at all maketh for popery. For if it hath pleased God at any yme to worke won∣ders by the signe of the crosse, it followeth not thereof ether that the signe of the crosse hath any vertue in it, more then that hemme of Christes garment had, by which a woman also was healed, or els that an ordina∣ry ceremonye is to be made of signing with the crosse, more then of touchinge the hemme of anye gar∣ment.

In the 22. demaunde he asketh whether in the most auncient seruice of the primitiue Church, there was not alwayes prayer for the deade and to Saynctes, the ceremonies vsed by Papistes in baptisme &c. I answere, no. Cyprian whome he quoteth Ep. 66. speaketh not of prayer for the deade in any place, but of oblation for the falling a sleepe that is thankes giuing for the de∣parture of the deade, and naming them in the prayers of the Church which dyed in the faith of Christ, and in obedience of the Church.

Page  95 In the tyme of Eusebius that errour of praying for the deade was in deede receyued in many places of the Churche, which beganne first amonge the Monta∣nists. The ceremonies of exuflation and exorcisme were not idlely vsed in the primitiue Church, as they are of the Papistes, but when the persons to be bap∣tised were sensibly possessed with deuills as appeareth in Cyprian lib. 3. Ep. 7. ad Magnum.

Likewise where he demaund th whether we reade at any tyme when Masse did first come into the Chur∣ches. I aunswere if by Masse he meaneth that popish forme of sacrificing, which they vse and call Masse, we reade of euery parte of it when and by what Pope it came in. By Masse he meaneth the doctrine of the carnall presence, transubstantiation, adoration of the sacrament and making it a sacrifice propitiatory for the quicke and the deade, I aunswer that we reade all these heresies to haue crept into the Church of Rome, since the first six hundreth yeares. And as for the substance of the canon, being contrary to the doctrine of the A∣postles, is easie to be proued that it came not from the Apostles, beside that some of them ascribe it to Grego∣ry, and Gregory him selfe to Scholasticus, so that being of some antiquitie it conteyneth in it, matter repugnant euen vnto the popish heresies. For first it calleth the cō∣secrated breade and wine the sacrifices, and offereth them for the whole Church. Secondly after consecra∣tion it calleth the Sacrament Panem sanctum vite aeter∣nae, & calicem salutis aeternae, holye breade of eter∣nall life, and cuppe of eternall health, of the giftes of God, and prayeth God to accept it as the sacrifice of Abell.

Thirdly the priest prayeth that God will commaund •••• same to be caried by an Angellinto his high alter &c.

Fourthly he prayeth for all them that haue receyued the same sacrament with him which can not stand with a priuate Masse.

Finally, that it came not euidently of the Apostles, as Page  96 Bristow impudently affirmeth, it may be euidētly seene by this, that diuerse Sainctes are named in it, which li∣ued more then two hundreth yeares after the Apostles as Cosmus Damiaius &c. And that we are able to finde more fault with it then with Gloria Patri, Te Deum &c. it is plentifully declared by many volumes, and namely by Bishop of Sarum in his sermon and defence of the same against Harding.

The 33. motiue is the 21. demaund.

Ecclesiasticall monuments and liuings. Churches the worke of the Catholikes. Vniuersities of heretikes and Catholikes. Protestants be vsurpers of other mens liuings.

Although a great number of churches, that are now * standing were builded by Papistes, and for Popery, yet not all. For the chiefest and most auncient Cathedrall churches, were neither builded by Papistes, nor for Po∣pery, but by Christian Princes and for the vse of Chri∣stian * religion. Of such churches writeth Euseb. in vita Const. lib. 30. & Hist. Eccl. lib. 10. cap. 4. where was but one table or altare, which was remoueable & made of bords placed in the midest of the Church. contrary to the po∣pish fashion which hath many Altars, and all againste walles or pillers, and the chiefest against the farthest wall, most commonly. It is a fonde reason of Bristowe that they were built for Popery, because they are builte in length to the East, or in forme of a Crosse. For many are built rounde, and those with crosse Iles, are moste vnmeete for masse at the high Altar, which they that sit in the crosse Yles cannot see. Likewise Bede, whome Bristowe in the demaunde without shame doth quote for the contrary, testifieth that the churches of the Ro∣maines. lib. 3. Cap. 4. speaking of Niua, one that was brought vp at Rome, which at a place called Candida ca∣sa now Whiterne: Made a Church of stone of an other fa∣cion, then the Britans were wont to build. These are ye words Page  97 of Bede of Stapletons translation. And concerning the founding of Ecclesiasticall liuings and Vniuersities, we know that the first dotation of Churches, was by Chri∣stian Princes, what if superstition hath added any thing to them? Nether the building of Churches, not the founding of liuings and Vniuersities, doth proue the builders or founders to be of good religion, not yet cō∣demne the vsers of such Churches, liuings and Vniuer∣sities, of vsurping or sacriledge. The idolatrous Church of Pantheon at Rome, was turned into Maria rotunda. Gregory councelled Augustine to conuert the Idola∣trous Churches of the Saxons, to the vse of Christian religion. Beda lib. 1. cap. 30. The Vniuersitie of Athens, founded by heahen Philosophers, was after frequen∣ted by Christian schollers as testifieth Gregory Nazi∣anzene in Monod. And if we beleue our English stories, ye liuings of the Idolatrous Flamines & Arch Flamines was conuerted to the mayntenancs of the Bishops and ArchBishops.

The 34. motiue is the 23. demaund.

Heretikes are apes of the Catholikes. The Churches lear∣ning * and wisedom. The Communion booke an apish imitation of our Masse booke.

The maner of Apes is to counterfeit and follow vi∣sible * actions, without any meaning or profit. Such imita∣tion haue we none, but the apish Church of Rome, is ful of such following of the gestures of Christ, in their masse and other ceremonies. Yea they counterfeit the voice of Pilate & Iudas in reading the gospel on Palme Sonday. They play the apes of the Primitiue Church, in coniuring the deuil in baptisme. Yea they be the apes of Aaron & the leuitical Priestes, in their robes, sensing, & sacrificing. The very Pagans they follow in ceremonies & festiuities, as their owne Durand confesseth. In whose Rationale diuinorum, you may see the learning & wisdom Page  98 of the popish Church, for all their mischieuous myste∣ries.

As for vs, we imitate nothing that they doe, to get commendation by similitude of their doings, but rather we abhorre whatsoeuer hath but a shew of popery, if we vse any thing rightly, which is abused of them, we are not therefore apes of them, but they apes of the aunci∣ent fathers, whose doctrine we doe truely follow, as they vainely imitate and in imitation falsely peruert their examples. That the communion booke is an apish imi∣tation of the masse booke, is a most shamelesse lye. For what similitude hath our ministration of the communi∣on, with their masse, any more, then our doctrine with theirs? If any thinge in ceremonies or discipline haue bene tollerated not altogether purged from all simili∣tude of popish actions, by yelding vnto the infirmitie of the weaker sort: yet is the Church of God perfect in her selfe, and needeth not to borrow of any secte any thing, for her perfect furniture in doctrine, ceremonies, or dis∣cipline, but hath absolute rules to direct her in any of these expressed in the holy Scriptures.

For the diuision of parishes, the holding of Coun∣cells, excommunication, suspension, publike solemnising of mariage with the lawes of the same, punishing of heretikes by, death, &c. are all manifestly proued out of the Scriptures. Probat of testaments and such like matters pertayne to the ciuill lawe. And whereas Bri∣stow sayth, we could not tell that we shoulde vse bap∣tisinge of men, more then washinge of feete, or this lesse then that, or one to be a sacrament and not the other, except we had bene taught by the popishe Churche, it is a greate falshoode. For althoughe we might alleage the iudgement of the moste auncient Churche of Christ, which did not accept that action of Christ as a sacraments yet the wordes of our Sauiour Christ are manifest, which doth not institute a sacramēt or visible signe of the inuisible grace of God giuen vnto vs, but onely giueth vs an example thereby of seruice Page  99 able humilitie one to an other. Ioan. 13. 12. Wherefore no more in this then in any other matter doe we take any light, out of the bookes and doings of those owles, that flye in the darkenes of mens traditions, but onely out of the lawe of God which is a light vnto our steps, and a lanterne vnto our feete, that we neede not like apes counterfeit externall toyes as they doe, but be∣ing followers of God as wellbeloued children, we may walke in loue as Christ hath loued vs, and so fare to followe the steppes of other men, as we see plainly that they haue followed Christ.

The 35. motiue is the 25. demaund.

States of perfection. Monkes & Monasteries. Parliament * religion.

We confesse that we haue no states of perfection in * this life amonge vs, which to affirme in any mortall man is blasphemye against the bloode of Christ. As for Monkes and Fryers names, Eremites, &c: none were farther from a Christian or honest life then they, as the worlde knoweth sufficientlye. And therefore by lawe they and their Monasteries were iustly subuerted. As for the solitarye men of the auncient tymes, dwelling by them selues, or in the desert places called Mnach, Anchoritae or Eremite, these popishe orders, of whose subuersion Bristow complayneth, were no more like vnto them, then Apes and Monkeyes are to men and women.

The communitye of goodes that was in the Church of the Apostles. Act. 4. was none other, then suche as is and ought to be amonge all true Christians. which was not as Bristowe ignorauntlye and impu∣dently affirmeth, to liue without propriety of goodes, hauing all thinges in an Anabaptisticall communitie, but that they accompted nothing of that they posses∣sed to be their owne, when the necessitie of their bre∣thren Page  100 required the vse therof. Act. 4. 32. & 34. And Act. 5. 4. Peter affirmeth that both the lande and the price thereof was in the proprietye of Ananias, so that he might haue retayned ether his land or the whole price thereof, but that he was an hypocrite and would beare the Churche in hande, that he had brought the whole price, when he withdrewe a parte thereof. As for Vir∣gines although there be fewer amongest vs, that boast of that profession, yet are there more both men and women which freely keepe their purpose of virgini∣tie, then were amonge those popishe vowed cloy∣stralls.

The 36. motiue is the 46. demaund.

The state of our predecessors. Prayer for the deade, the ground of building Christian monuments. Vniuersities of here∣tikès * and Catholikes, Protestants be ashamed of their fa∣thers.

The demaund serueth to be contrary to the motiue, * for in the motiue he confesseth, that we will not con∣demne our auncestors that haue dyed these many hun∣dred yeares in popish ignorance, nor the auncient do∣ctors which haue held some errors which the Papistes doe hold, but in the demaund he asketh, if all these are damned in hell, if not, then theirs is the true Church, & those errors are truth. I aunswer we deale not with con∣demnation of men, for lacke of two causes, which make a Iudge, the one austeritie, the other is knowledge. Concerning the first, it pertayneth onely to Christ, to be the Iudge of the quicke and the deade, whose office we dare not vsurpe, otherwise then he hath commaun∣ded vs, to pronounce sentence out of his word: concer∣ning the latter, we take not vpon vs to knowe ether the faith or repentance of them that dyed before our time, and therefore we commit their iudgement to God. But generally we are taught by the Scriptures, that such as Page  101 holde the onely foundation which is Iesus Christ, in a true faith, shall be saued although they build vpon this foundation chaffe, straw, wood, &c. 1. Cor. 3. And there∣fore we doubt not but S. Augustine, Chrysostom, Hie∣rom, Gregory, Bernard, & many thowsands, euen in the tyme of great blindnes, holding the same only founda∣tion, may be saued, notwithstanding the chaffe and stubble of a few errors which the former sort did hold, or a number of errors and superstitions wherewith the later sort were defiled. As for Fraunces and Dominike such late leaders of the locustes, we rather thinke they are returned into the bottomlesse pit from whence they came, then that they be Saincts in heauen. But if we ex∣cuse the rest by ignorance, Bristow asketh why we con∣demne not Augustine, which was not ignoraunt of our doctrine, because he condemned it for most wicked he∣resie in Aerius, Iouinian and Vigilantius, who although they be our fathers, he sayth we are ashamed to blesse their memorie. First concerning Iouinian, although he helde an heresie, in not preferring virginitie before ma∣riage in some respect, yet haue we nothing to doe with him, for we hold not that opinion, which if we did yet were it no damnable heresy. Touching AErius he is cō∣demned of Augustine for an Arrian, his opiniō of pray∣er for the deade although it were not liked of Augu∣stine, yet doth he in no place condemne it for most wic∣ked heresie, as Bristow calleth it, but that he did allowe prayer for the deade, it was an error of ignoraunce, e∣uen in S. Augustine, as that he thought the communion necessary for infants. Cont. duas ep. Pelag. lib. 2. cap. 4. As for Vigilantius I finde him not reckened ether by Epi∣phanius or Augustine for an heretike, or for one that erred in doctrine, although Hierom did write so bitter∣ly against him, who likewise did write against Augu∣stine and Ruffinus, yet are nether of both accompted for heretikes. And AErius as he helde some truth with vs against prayer for the deade, so helde he also much popishe superstition and errour, for like the order of Page  102 Carthusians, they of his sect admitted none to their fe∣lowship, but such as professed continence, & so renoun∣ced the world, that they possessed nothing in proper. As testifieth Epiphanius and Augustine. And Philaster af∣firmeth, that they absteyned also from cating of flesh. So that all thinges considered, Aerius mainteyned the do∣ctrine of the Papistes, as much as of the Protestantes. That our preachers in pulpits, praise God for the foun∣ders of colledges and schooles, of learning, by name, what maketh this for allowance of their religion. God is to be praised for such benefits as he hath bestowed v∣pon his church or any members thereof, euen by Turks and Heathen men. Wherfore this is a very slow motiue vnto Popery. For whether the founders were good or euill men, and what intent soeuer they had, their bene∣fits are now vsed to the glory of God, & therefore God for them and their benefits is greatly to be praised.

The 37. motiue hath neuer a demaund that I can aptly referre vnto it.

The only knowne & vndoubted mother of Christs children * for a thousand yeares together. The church is euerlasting and visible.

The Popish church hath not only bene ye only known * church and vndoubted mother of Christes children for these thousand yeares. First because it is not of so many yeares continuaunce, the mysterie of iniquitie hauing not bene in highest degree of wickednesse before the councell of Constance, where notwithstanding the in∣stitution of Christ and the practise of the primitiue church, the communion of the Lordes bloud was taken from the people. Secondly the Popish church was ne∣uer acknowledged by all the true children of Christes church, for their mother, which was a steppemother and a persecuter of them. Thirdly the Popish church Page  103 was neuer ye only reputed church or mother of Christs children, of all them that professe Christianitie for the churches of the East, as great and as large as she was in the West, woulde neuer so accompt the Popish steppe∣dame of Rome, but did separate them selues from her communion. Fourthly the Catholike church of Christes members dispersed ouer all the world, vnder the tyran∣ny both of the Turke & the Pope, haue in all times pro∣tested, that ye Romish Apostolical synagoge, is the whore of Babylon and see of Antichrist.

The places of Mich. 4. and Esa 61. which he citeth to proue that the church must be alwayes visible, you shall finde aunswered with many other in mine ouerthrow of Stapletons fortres lib. 1. cap. 13. And wheras Bristow con∣fesseth, that a mist may hide an hil that is neuer so high, from some wicked sighted men that are without it, but neuer from them that are within it, no meruale if the spirituall church of Christ, being lifted vp aboue the top of all hills, not in worldly glory, but euen vnto heauenly dignitie, hath long remained hid from them, that haue no spirituall eyes at all. But Bristow thinketh it straūge, that a mist should continue a thousand yeres together. Then I aske him what hath hindered the greatest parte of all the worlde, seduced by Mahometistrie and Gen∣tilitie that for these thousand yeres they haue not seene the height of the Popish church. If he say not a mist a∣bout their church but a blindnesse in the others eyes to be the cause, the same I aunswere for the Catholike dispersed church of Christ, which the Papistes pretend that this thousand yeares they could not see. Although as I haue often sayd, Papistry is not halfe so olde in the greatest heresies and absurdities, which now she mayn∣teyneth.

The 38. motiue is the 24. demaund also the 48. and the 17.

Celebration & operation of Christes death. The sacrifice of Bristow.Page  104the masse. Priestoode. VVhere Christ worketh. Only fayt. Exorcising of deuills.

In the Popish churchis no celebration, but a deroga∣tion of the merite of Christs death, by the blasphemous * sacrifice of the masse. But Bristow in the 24. demaunde, asketh vs whether we be content to trie religion by the Priesthood that hath bene frō; the beginning of Christs church. I answere that we must first consent of the name of Priest and Priesthoode, whereof also in the same de∣maunde he cauilleth, that we haue chaunged the name & therefore haue chaunged the order. The name I say of Priesthood & Priest must be cōsidered, either accor∣ding to the Etymologie & deriuation, or els according to the present vse thereof. And according to the deriua∣tion, we cōfesse yt this word Priest, cōming of the greeke word Presbyteros signifieth the same oder, which is in∣stituted by God, like as the word Bishop cmming of E∣piscopus, for which if any man vse the name of Elder & superintendent, he varieth nothing in the worlde, from the signification of Presbyter and Episcopus, and much lesse setteth vp a new order as Bristow most vainly doth cauill. For in that sence, we abhorre not the name of Priest & Bishop. But when according to the present vse, this word Priest is takē for him which in greke is called 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 and in Latine Sacerdos that is one appointed to of∣fer a special sacrifice for which our English tongue hath none other worde but Priest as Bristow doth well con∣fesse: In this sence we deny that we haue any speciall Priesthoode or Priestes among vs but the only Priest∣hoode and high Priest our Lorde and Sauiour Iesus Christ, and the generall Priesthoode that is common to all the Saynctes of God. Apoc. 16. But in the former sence, we haue the same office of Bishoppe, Elder or Priest which being ordeyned by the holy Ghost, hath continewed in the church vntill this time. But this will Bristowe disproue, by two reasons. First that aun∣cient Bishoppes and Priestes were made by Bishoppès Page  105 and Priestes, and not by Kinges and Queenes: second∣ly they were made to offer sacrifice, and euen for the deade. Concerning the first it is true that the aun∣cient Priestes were so ordeyned, but it is a most impu∣dent slaunder, that we are made Bishoppes or Priests by Kinges or Queenes. For the worlde knoweth we are ordeyned by the Bishoppes and Elders of the church and not by the Prince. But that the auncient Bishoppes and Elders of the church since Christ, were ordeyned to offer sacrifice for the quicke and the dead, it is vtterly false.

For albeit the auncient writers vnpro∣perly vsed the names of Priest and sacrifice, yet did they neuer meane to set vp a newe Priesthoode or sa∣crifice, to ouerthrowe the only true Priesthode and sa∣crifice of Christes death as in many places of their wri∣tinges most manifestly doth appeare, but only they did continew a memory of the sacrifice of Christes death in the celebration of the Lordes supper Chris. ad Heb. cap. 10. Hom. 17. and a sacrifice of prayse and thankesgeuing August. De ciuit. Dei. lib. 10. cap 6. Hoc est sacrificium Chri∣stianorum multi vnum corpus sumus in Christo: quod etiam Sacramento altaris fidelibus noto frequentat ecclesia, vbi ei demonstratur quod in ea oblatione quam offrt ipsa offera∣tur. This (sayth Augustine speaking of the sacrifice of thankesgeuing) is the sacrifice of Christians, we be∣ing many are one bodie in Christ, which thing also the church frequenteth in the Sacrament of the altar well knowne to the faithfull, where it is shewed vnto her, that in the same oblation which she offereth, she her selfe is offered. Likewise cap. 20. speaking of the sa∣crifice of Christes death he sayth. Per hoc & Sacer∣dos est, ipse offerens, ipse & oblatio. Cuius rei sacramentum quotidianum esse voluit ecclesiae sacrificium, cum ipsius cor∣poris ipse sit caput, & ipsius capitis ipsa sit corpus, tam ipsa per ipsum quam ipse per ipsam suetus offerri. By this al∣so he is a Priest, he him selfe offering and he him selfe being the oblation. Of which thing he would haue the dayly sacrifice of the church to be a Sacrament, seeing Page  106 that of her beinge his bodie he is the heade, and of him being her heade she is the bodie, as well she by him, as he by her, being accustomed to be offered.
So that the errour of praying for the deade which pre∣uayled within three hundreth yeares after Christ, was at the first, without blasphemie of sacrificing the bo∣dye of Christ for the quicke and the deade. In this foure and twentie demaunde Bristowe as keth further whether in the auncient Church there were not Sub∣deacons, Acolytes, Exorcistes, dore keepers &c. I aunswere there were such offices, appoynted for ayde of diuerse partes of the ministerie, whereof the Pa∣pistes reteyne only the names, without any exercise of the offices. And the offices were suche for the most parte, as were proper for the tyme of persecution, and as they had no instruction of the worde of God but were ordeyned by the Church, so by the Church they are thought vnnecessarie. In the forty eight demaunde which is a parte of this motiue, he asketh whether their Church only hath not grace in her Sacramentes, merite in her workers, force in her worde, power in her teaching, her children the saddest sorte of peo∣ple, men of best order in families, townes, and cities, &c. I aunswere, the Popish Church hath no Sacraments but such as she falsely vsurpeth, namely the Sacrament of baptisme, which as Augustine sayth against the Do∣natistes, may be geuen out of the true Church, but hath no vertue or grace but in the true Church.
As for merite of workes is blasphemous agaynste the mercie of God. Vnde mihi tantum meriti est (sayth Ambrose Ad virgin. exhort.) cui indulgentia pro coro∣naest. Whence shoulde I haue so great merite see∣ing mercie is my crowne.
And touching force of her worde and power of her teaching, if there were not greater terrour of her tyrannie and allurement in her worldly glorie she shoulde haue fewer partakers. For except the efficacie of errour which God hath sent for the punishment of the vnbeleeuing worlde, she hath Page  170 no power of the worde of God, nor of his holy spirite, to conuert the hearts of men to Christe, but externall intisements like Mermaydes songes, to seduce men to their destruction. And as for her Children the Pa∣pists, although some bee more modest then the reste, as ther be euen among the Turkes and Heathen, none ate more light, vaine, disordered, proude, proude, de∣ceitfull, couetous, worldly, luxurious, malicious, and cruell, not onely at Rome, and abrode, where they bee in their ruffe, but euen heere in Englande, where they haue not all their will. I except a fewe, which bee∣ing deceiued, not of malice but of ignoraunce, God in time may bring to the knowledge of the trueth, if they be not dissemblers and seeke by all meanes to ab∣sent themselues from it.

Furthermore how e maliciously he slaundereth the Church of God let God himselfe reuenge, where hee sayth, we haue no preaching of Penaunce, no grace in sacramentes, nothing but sinne in good woorkes, al∣though they be doone in Christe. No power to bringe vnder Deuils, no blessing, no comforte, yea that all followers bee they neuer so wicked and flagitious, haue they onely fayth and no doubte, they shall bee saued. And yet the forgetfull Lyer confesseth after∣warde, that wee affirme that true fayth cannot bee without true and perfect doctrine, nor without good woorkes.

But what Fayth doe you preach or teach (sayth Bristowe) Not that Christian fayth which is contey∣ned in the Articles of our Creede, but a speciall Fayth, or an vudoubted perswasion that hee is predestinate. How soeuer therefore it bee that Bristowe is disposed for to lye and rayle, they that either heare our Ser∣mons or reade our Bookes of Iustification by Faith onely, doe knowe that wee teach none other Faith by which a manne may bee iustifyed, but euen that Faith, which is onely contayned in the Articles of our Creede. The very firste woorde whereof Page  108 I beleue, teacheth not the implicite faith of the papists, but a speciall and singular faith and truste that euerye Christian man must haue in God the father and in Ie∣sus Christ, which was conceiued, borne, deade, risen a∣gaine, &c. for vs, and in the holy Ghoste, by whome the vertue of Christes conception, natiuirie, suffring, death, resurrection, and assention, is communicated to vs, bee∣ing members of the Catholike church, in which we re∣ceiue forgiuenes of sinnes, and thereby beeing made righteous, wee receiue the rewarde of righteousnesse, which is the resurrection vnto glory, and the life euer∣lasting, which was prepared for vs before the world was made, which faith no blasphemous heretikes can haue, that deny any of these Articles, what perswasion soeuer they haue, wc faith the Papists haue not, which neuer put their trustin God by Iesus Christe, but in their owne woorkes &c, nor yet haue any certaintie of their salua∣tion, whereas all they that truely put their trust in God, shall not be confounded. From which faith the Pa∣pists are so farre, that they think it not conuenient that the people should know and rehearse the articles of the Creede in the mother toung, although nowe of late, they haue set foorth English cathechismes, as Apes of the true Church, not that their Disciples might haue more knowledge, seing they hold that ignorance is the mother of Deuotion, but that they see they cannot though for shame they would conceale this knowledge from them. And when they cannot hinder them of the knoweledge of the Articles of faith, howe I pray you doe they teach them to beleeue them? Euen with an historicall faith, which is none others then such as the deuill beleeueth, namely that there is one God, that Ie∣sus Christe was borne, crucyfied, ascended into Hea∣uen &c.

In the 17. Demaunde he asketh vs whether we reade not that the Christians of the Primitiue church, had an ordinary power and office to cast out diuels, which we acknowledge that we haue not, but the Papistes haue. Page  109 To this I aunswere, that in the Primitiue church were diuerse giftes of healing, casting out of Deuils & wor∣king of miracles, which were temporall, and are long since ceased to be ordinary, and therefore wee doe in deede confesse that we haue no such ordinary power. Neither doe we beleue that the papists haue any such, what iugling or counterfaiting of miracles soeuer is a∣mong them, their forgery hath to often beene tryed to their shame.

To conclude, our Church hath Christ and his spirit, and therefore all graces & blessings whatsoeuer Christ hath promised to be perpetuall in the same, to the sal∣uation of his elect and the glory of his name.

The 39. motiue is in parte contayned in the 48. demaund.

Teaching the narrowe way, and liuing after it. VVho be Bristow. nowe followers of Protestants. VVhy there bee so many i∣theisti in England. England beware of destruction.

The doctrine of Purgatory and satisfaction of Gods * wrath by workes of our owne or of other mens. The doctrine of pardons, the doctrine of Grace giuen by sacraments, Exopere operato. The sacrifice of the masse &c. are doctrines that teach the brode way leading vn∣to destruction, while they bring men into securitie and confidence in vaine helpes. And that is the cause that Papists and Popes themselues of all other haue beene and are the most wicked. The number of Atheists that are in England are not made, but discerned by the prea∣ching of the Gospel. And yet neither are there so many nor so impudent professors of Atheisme in England, as there be in Italie and euen in Rome it selfe. Where the Pope hath beene condemned in generall councell for an Atheist, as Iohn the 23. in the councell of Constas. Where Pope Leo counteth the Gospell for a fable of Page  170 Christ. Pope Iuly will eate hogges fleshe in despight of God.

The sinnes I confesse of England are greate, and such as call to God for vengeance without heartie re∣pentance, and the greatest sinne is ingratitude in the multitude, refusing sincerly to imbrace the Gospell, and in other hypocrisie which abusing the name of the Gospell, haue an outwarde shewe of godlynesse, but deny the power thereof. Yet is there bothe in the state (whiche Bristowe moste traitorously doth slaun∣der) and in the Church of England, yea in the Realme of Englande, more sinceritie, fidelitie, honestie, Cha∣ritie, humilitie, Chastitie, and godlinesses, and lesse A∣thesme, infidelitie, crueltie, pride, ryote, whoredome, swearing and foswearing, Couetousnesse, sacriledge, and all manner of wickednesse, more I say of vertue and lesse of vice in England at this time, then is or hath beene at any time with in those fiue hundred yeeres in Rome or Italie. So that if a Booke were made as Bristow seemeth to threaten of the behauiour of the worst and moste counterfaite Protestantes in Eng∣lande, yet shall it neuer bee founde so vile and abho∣minable as are the lyues of the moste of the Popes themselues, set foorth not by Protestants in our dayes, but by all popish storyes before we were borne.

The 40. motiue hath no speciall demand aunsvvering to it.*

Obedient subiects. In what Church is Christianitie of all lawes which was Sainct Augustines Motiue. Obedience of the Catholikes to their superiours bothe ecclesiastieall and temporall Protestantes be malignours of higher powers. *

If this Motiue had beene sette foorth before the Rebellion in the North, or if so many trayterouse practises from Rome hadd not beene openly discoue∣red Page  169 peraduenture Bristowe might haue moued some mountaines by it.

But nowe Quis tulerit Gracchum de seditioue loquen∣tm? Who canne abide the Papistes to bragge of O∣bedience? Yet both the ciuill Lawe and the common Lawe of Englande are made to serue popishe Religi∣on, if wee will beleeue Bristowe. God bee thanked they bothe serue the Church of God not onely in Englande, but in all other Realmes and states that haue embraced the Gospell, the ciuill and municipall Lawes, without any alteration of the state, saue for the aduancement of Gods glory.

But Protestants hee sayth, bee Maligners of the higher powers, such as Sainct Iude calleth contem∣ners of Lordeshippe, and blasphemers of Maiestie. Or else the Papistes be such in that blasphemouse Bull, for which Felton was hanged, in which are so vile op∣probrious and contumelious slanders of our Prince, that for her honour and my dueties sake, I will not vouchsafe to name them.

Hee obiecteth vnto vs Knoxes Booke against the regement of women, which was but his priuate opi∣nion and condemned of all our Church, and of the Churche of Geneua also. Hee obiecteth the ciuill warres in Fraunce, in which the Kinges themselues haue alwayes in publique instrumentes discharged the Protestants of all disloyaltie, and acknowledged that whatsoeuer they did in taking Armes, they did it in the seruice of them and of their Realme. As for the murdering of great Personages, Wasting of Cities and Countries &c. the worlde knoweth whether par∣tie is chargeable with the crime. And to seeke no far∣ther proues of the trayterous and disobedient heartes of all wicked and pernitiouse Papistes, Bristow him selfe confesseth in this motiue, that they be duely dis∣charged from subiection and the Prince from dominion by the soueraigne authoritie of the common Paster of Reli∣gion.

Page  112 But where in the Deuils name, hath your soue∣raigne Pastor and Prelate of Rome, such authoritie? From Peter? Did Peter discharge the subiectes of Ne∣ro from subiection, or Nero from his gouernment, al∣though he were a moste wicked persecutor of the Church, or rather doth he not commaund all persons to obey him. 1. Pet, 2. 14. & 17. O trayterous hypocrites, which haue made all whole, whē you pray for the Prin∣ces conuersion, so deposed by your Pope. The Lord our God defende our soueraigne, as well from your pray∣ers as from your practises. Another argument of your obedience, you shew, where you saye, that of Catholikes, throughly discharged of their fealtic, yet for common humani∣tie, for their accustomed vse, for their cōtinuall & (as it were) naturall institution, the prince is better obeyed and scrued, then of the Protestants, which in heart are in a manner all Puritants. Note heere that Papists professe them selues to be subiects of curtesie, not of dutie, of custome, not of conscience, of naturall institution, not of the lawe of God. Our Lord and sauiour send her maiestie few such subiects and seruants.

The 41. motiue is the 19. demaund.

The Church to which Princes doe homage. *

The true Catholike church of Christ, is that church of which it was prophecied, that Kinges and Queenes * shoulde be the nurse thereof, and as obedient children doe homage thereto, as to the mother of all the faith∣full. To this church the olde and first Christianed Em∣perours, Constantius, Iouianus, Theodosius, Valentinia∣nus &c. submitted them selues as obedient children. To this church at this day many Kinges and Queenes doe homage, and are nurses thereof, as the Princes of En∣gland, Scotland, Denmarke, Sueuon, Saxonie. But Bri∣stow obiecteth against vs, yt our Princes are not taught obedience to the Church, but truely seduced by the Page  113 title of heade and supreme gouernours of the Church. To this I aunswere that this title of headshippe and go∣uernaunce of particular Churches, is none other, but such as they may and ought to holde, with their obedi∣ence vnto the vniuersall Church. Yea their gouernment is such, as therein they serue God and the Church, in compelling by lawe and authoritie, all persons to doe their duties as well in religion, as in ciuill affayres: Not an antichristian tyranny, such as the Pope vsurpeth to be Lords ouer our faith, and to make Articles of Reli∣gion at their pleasure, but to prouide that all thinges may be doone according to the word of God.

But Bristow replyeth that it was not the Popish church vnto whome Constantine and the rest of the Christian Emperours yeelded vp the imperiall Cittie of Rome, with all the countrie of Italie. What an impudent lye this is, may easely be knowen of all them, which haue read the historyes which testifie that the Emperors of Constantinople receiued possession in Rome and Italy vntill the time of Charles the great, which was made Emperour by the Pope. In the demaunde Bristowe asketh if the first Christian Emperonrs, Constantinus, Theodosius, were not in all pointes of the popishe Reli∣gion? I answere that although they were infected with a few errors, as prayer for the deade &c, yet in the sub∣stance of Christian Religion, they beleeued the same that wee beleeue of Iustification by faith, onely of the vertue of Christes sacrifice once offred for all, of the authoritie of the holy Scriptures, and were enemies to the Papistes in their chiefe Principle, of the Popes supremacie, the carnall presence, transubstantiation, priuate Masse, Communion in one kinde, Images, Prayers in vnknowen language, and many other.

As for the lycence that Bristowe woulde haue vs procure for them, to appeare with vs before the Queenes highnesse, to dispute whether the firste Chri∣stian Emperors were not altogither Papists? is nothing else but a popishe bragge, whiche if it were procured Page  114 they would delude the whole purpose with such Cauil∣lations, as they did in the Conference offered vnto them at Westminster, in the firste yeere of her Maiest∣ies raigne: where after they had hearde our side once reade their Booke, they were so discouraged, that they durst abide no more tryall, but shamefully and obsti∣antely cleane gaue ouer the conference.

The 42. motiue is parte of the 47. demaund.

The Parliament Church and Religion. Sainct Peter ex∣cluded * out of Englande by Parliament. Yea Christe, Pe∣ter and Paule and other Apostles excluded out of Englande by Parliament. The Apostles were of our Religion. Howe Sainct Augustine should be vsed in England by the Parlia∣ment lawe if he were there liuing. Of what Religion and authoritie the Fathers are. Succession. Protestants contrary to them salues.

Wee must consider (sayth Bristowe) what Church * that is, where Lawes be made to charge Peter if hee were liuing, to giue vppe his commission receiued of Christ, and to take another of the Kinge or Queene, and to charge him and his fellowe Apostles to leaue the true seruice which they had receiued, and to mi∣nister after an other sorte, as the Paliament lawe pre∣scribeth.

To this I aunswere, we will bee tryed by the wri∣tinges of Peter and his fellow Apostles, that the Par∣liament lawe for Religion and seruice of God, concer∣nig the substance thereof vrgeth not Peter to chaunge his commission, nor to vse any other seruice then they them selues haue taught vs to vse. If Augustine were aliue and in Englande, hee was a man of such mode∣stie and loue of the trueth, that seeing the same plain∣ly reuealed out of the holy Scriptures, hee woulde re∣tracte Page  115 his errour of Prayer for the deade, as when hee lyued hee retracted and sette foorth manye thinges, wherein he founde that he hadde erred. As for the fine of an hundred Markes, he woulde not haue lefte nor beene depriued of his Byshoprike and imprysoned for saying of the popishe Masse, for hee neuer sayde any in his life, but was an vtter enemye to the chiefe poyntes thereof, allowing nothing ther∣of but prayer for the deade at the celebration of the Lords supper.

And for as our Sauiour Iesus Christ, the King of all Kinges and Lorde of all Lordes, and the onely ruler of Heauen and earth, doe you thinke that hee wyll not complaine that hee onely by Parliament lawe is ac∣knoweledged to bee the heade of his vniuersall Church, and so continually present therewith by his holy spirit, that he neede no viear generall of a mor∣tall manne, which canne occupye but one place, al∣though he were neuer so diligent and painfull to dis∣charge his dutie in that behalfe.

For his diuine and spirituall authoritie, is not ex∣cluded vnder the name of forraine power, as Bristowe not more slaunderously then ridiculously affirmeth. Yet hee pleaseth him selfe so much in so greate folly and madnesse, that hee sayth, Christe coulde not clayme to be heade of his Church, excepte he should clayme to be the naturall Kinge of Englande, and to haue sayde vnto Pylate, My kingdome is of this world and thy maister Caesar doth me wronge. As though the King of Englande, by title of his royall power, clayming to be the chiefe Seruaunte or deputie of Christe, in gouerning his Churche according to his worde, did exclude the soueraignitie of Christe which he hath ouer his Church and elect, wheresoeuer they are vpon the face of the earth.

But the Protestantes (sayth Bristowe) are contrary to them selues while they say that our Prince is Kinge of France aswel as of England and Ireland & yet say not that hePage  116is hede of the Church of Fraunce, but onely of the Church of England and Irelande. And is Bristowe such a pro∣found Logitian that he cannot distinguishe a Kinge in right onely, from a King in actuall gouerment. If our Prince had as good possession of the gonernmente of Fraunce, as hee hath title of right to haue it, hee shall be gouernour of the Church of Fraunce, as well as of the Church of Englande and Ireland. That hee sayth we haue beene from hence at the Apostles go∣ing so long a iorney without any footing, in the way, it is a foolish cauel for wee haue often shewed succes∣sion of doctune, euen from the Apostles from whome it is receiued.

The 43. Motiue is parte of the 47. demaunde.

Communion of Saintes. Christendom shut out of England by Parliament. Councels. Sainct Paule might not write * ad Anglos for the Palament.

The Church of Englande is not so straythened or pinched within the lymites of one Kingdombut that * she beleeueth and inioyeth the communion of all the Sainctes of God, as a member of the vniuersal church of Christe. And therefore I meruail what collour Bristowe hath for those slaunders: that one Christian man in Englande in spirituall affayres is a straunger to another, that generall Councels haue no authoritie in it, that Sainct Paule or all the Apostles if they were lyuing might not write to the Englishmen aswell as to the Romaines, Galathians, Corinthians &c. that Christe without the consente of the Kinge and the Parliament might not dispose his owne Church. These vaine and impossible suppositions, could not come but from a grosse and foolish inuention of one that lacketh argumentes to proue his cause. The lawes are made ac∣cording Page  117 to that which is, namely the trueth, set foorth in the holy Scriptures, not according to that which e∣uery foole will fondly suppose or imagine.

The 44. Motiue is the 49. demaund.

The Church that all Chrsstes enemies fight against. Eng∣lande * ioyneth with Christes enemyes againste Christendome. VVhat Religion the Iowes impunge as the Religion of Christ. Christ is to bee beleeued for conuerting of Emperours and powers from their Idols to serue his seruauntes. The Church is euerlasting and visible. Saincte Augustines motiue. Em∣perors turned from their Idols and praying at Peeters se∣pulchre, and the Christianitie of humane lawes. Sainct Au∣gustine of our Religion, Protestants bee of many olde he∣resies.

The popish Church was not persecuted by the hea∣then Emperous, but the Catholike church of Christ, * The popish Church is not of so great antiquitie, that shee had then any shewe in the worlde, although the misterie of iniquitie did then woorke and euen in the Apostles time. The Heathens, Turks and Iewes, doe no more hate the popish church; then they doe the church of God which is in England. The warres against the Turke be at this day maintained by the states of Ger∣many, which are of our religiō aswel as by the Papists, That there is no publike ayde sent against the Turk out of England, it is not in any allowaunce of Turkish reli∣gion but because the state seeth it not necessary neither was there any publike ayde sente an hundreth yeeres be ore the reuolte from Papistrie. And yet euen in the Queenes maiesties raigne, there hath gone ayde out of England against Soliman which died at the siege of Segesto, where diuers noble Gentlemen of Englande goinge on their owne charges as Bizia testifieth wan more true glory then they that 2. or 3. hundred yeeres before vpon a superstitious vowe were signed with the Page  118 crosse to fight against the Saracens, for the possession of the earthly Ierusalem. How often shall I aunswer, that the first christian Emperours were not conuerted from Idolatry to Christianitie by the popish Church, but the later Christian Emperours, by her haue bene peruerted from the true worship of God, vnto Idolatry. That the Emperours being conuerted from Idolatry, did pray at Peter the fishermans sepulchre (as Augustine sayth) it sheweth the vertue of ye Gospel of Christ that had made so great alteration in them, but nothing at all proueth the authoritie or any error of the popish Church, for Augustine sayth not that they prayed vnto Peter, but at the sepulcher of Peter, meaning in the Church that was builded vpon the place, that was supposed to be the bu∣riall of Peter. The lawes that those Emperours made a∣gainst Idolaters, may well serue against the Papistes, wc are as grosse in all kindes of Idolatry as the Gentills for the most part were. Finally it was not ye popish Church, but the Church of Christ, that suppressed the heresies of the Arrians, Sabellians, Nestorians &c. But Iouinian did let out of hell Priestes and Nunnes mariage, which gate not the Church of Protestantes, but our Church (sayth Bristow) hath stopped. The Church that striued against Iouinian, was nether for mariage of Priestes, of whom many thowsands were maryed in that tyme, yea and a thowsande yeares after, nor yet for mariage of such as had vowed virginitie, and could not contayne, when both Epiphanius the hatchet of heresies, and Hi∣erome that greatest aduersary of Iouinian, agree that they ought to marye. Epiph. cont. Apostolicoshaer. 61. Hie∣rom ad Demetriadem.

Nether were Epiphanius, Philaster, and Augustine, which disalow the opinion of Aerius, concerning pray∣ers for the dead, members of the popish church, for this one error which they held, seeing they hold the princi∣pall substance of religion against the Papists, and agree∣able to the word of God. That Bristow sayth in the de∣maund, VVe count Turkes, Iewes, and very Atheistes for ourPage  119frendes and all that be not Papistes, it is a most detestable slaunder. The Anabaptistes burned in Smithfield were no Papistes, the blasphemer of Christ lately burned at Norwiche was no Papist, whose sharpe execution shew∣eth, that heretikes, blasphemers, and Atheistes, when they are discouered, finde no friendship at the handes of Christes Church, but such as they deserue. Finally the Easterne Church, which of long tyme hath bene se∣parated from the Romish communion, hath as great e∣nemies of the Turkes, heathen and Iewes, as the Popish Church hath, yet will not the Papistes allow it for the Catholike Church.

The 45. motiue conteyneth the 31. 32. & 33. & 40. demaundes.

Euer visible and Catholike. Vniuersalitic. Antiquitie. Con∣sent. * Protestants were neuer before this tyme. They are asha∣med of their fathers. Hus was not a Protestant. VVicklefe was not a Protestant. VVicklefe condemned by Melancthon. Pro∣phecy for our religion. No Scripture against the Catholikes but all for them.

Here is nothing but the old popish bragge of vniuer∣salitie, antiquitie, and consent, which is as easily denied * as it is allwayes alleaged without proofe. Sauing that in the demaundes, they are sundered, as though euery one of them without the other two, were a sufficient tri∣all of truth, which nether Vincentius nor Optatus, nor Augustine, nor any that vsed this argument did euer meane. But that is truth, which being most auncient, hath at all tymes, of all true Christians, by general con∣sent bene receyued. But this can not be proued of any one error of poperye. For if any of these three be omit∣ted, the argument is of no force to proue truth. All nati∣ons by generall consent embraced Idolatrie. yet was the true worship of God which was knowen onely in Iurye Page  120 the more auncient. The worship of Iupiter was more auncient, then the honor of Christ shewed in the flesh, and more vniuersally receyued, but not of the true wor∣shippers of God. As for generall councells, which in the demaund of consent, he sayth to be all against the Pro∣testants, he is not able to shewe one approued generall councel, that was held within six hundreth yeares after Christ, that decreed any thing contrary to that which we beleue in any poynt. But confessing that in many a∣ges some there haue bene in some poyntes of our opi∣nion, yet he sayth we can shewe no lyneall succession, but leape from Luther to Christ, without any recorde of our religion in all the meane tyme, hauing no mo∣nument of such Church nether in leafe or lyne of ser∣uice booke: As one that loueth antiquities well, I would fayne see, what leaues the Papistes can shewe of their seruice bookes, to proue a lyneall descnt from Christ to Pope Gregory the 13 when Bristow sweareth perdie, to agree in all poyntes with Pope Leo the tenth, which was in Luthers tyme, some of their seruice being made by Thomas Aquinas, some by Fulbertus, some taken out of Beda, some out of Gregory, some out of Augustine, some out of Hieronyme, some out of Iohn Chrysostom, and of Ambrose, and the eldest I thinke not of Origen: which argueth nether antiquitie nor vniuersalitie to stand with the popish seruice as for lyneall succession from Christ, it is vnpossible for them to shewe.

But Bristow wil proue, that we were neuer before this time. For as for AErius, he knoweth we are ashamed of him. But he will proue that nether Hus, nor Wicklefe were Protestants. Because they held some opinions, that we doe not. By the same reason he may proue, that the fathers of the councels of Constance and Basil were no Papists, because they tooke vpon them to depose Popes and decreed that the councell was aboue the Pope, which most Papistes at this day dare not affirme. AE∣neas Syluius doth slaunder Wicklefe and Hus, that for euery mortall sinne a Magistrate should lose his office, Page  121 for their Apologies are extant to be seene to the con∣trary.

But Luther (sayth he) denyeth that he was an Hus∣site, affirming that Hus was not of his opiniō. Although he had bene in all poyntes of his opinion, as he was in the chiefe, yet might Luther iustly deny the name of a man, which is proper to sectaries as Franciscanes, Do∣minicanes &c, & not to Christians. Yet Wicklefe (sayth he) is condemned by Melanthon. How I pray you? First that he found many errors in him, by which iudgement might be made of his spirite. If Wicklefe liuing in a time of so great blindnes and darkenes, coulde not see the truth in all matters, it was no maruell, and that he had errors, he sheweth that he was a man, euen as the best writers of the Church since the Apostles tyme, which might be deceyued: But as we condemne not Augu∣stine, Hierom, Chrysostom, Cyprian, and other aunci∣ent writers, because we know rhey erred in some things, no more haue we iust cause to cond emne Wicklefe for some errors which it is not vnlike, but he did holde, yea but Melanthon chargeth Wicklefe (sayth he) to be al∣together ignoraunt of the righteousnes of faith, which is the foundation of religion. I will rather thinke that Melanthon was ignoraunt of Wicklefes opinion, as one which had not seene but fewe of his workes. In which as perhaps he might vse the tearmes of merit and de∣seruing, then commonly vsed in his tyme, yet that he had not the same meaning in them, but did well vnder∣stand and holde the righteousnes which is of fayth, I can playnely proue by his owne writings in diuerse pla∣ces. As vpon the Heb. 10. he sayth:

Sith Christ is God and man, satisfaction for the sinne that he made thus freely, is better then any other that man or Angell might make. The same man in nowmber that sinned in Adam our first fadir, the same man in nowmber made asseeth by the second Adam Christ. And sith he is more of vertue then the first Adam might be, and his payne is much more then sinnefull lust of the first Adam, who shoulde haue conscience here, thatPage  122ne this sinne is clansid all orst. And sith our Iesu is very God that neuer man forfete this mede, he is a sufficient medicine for all sinners that bene contrite, for Christ is euer and eue∣ry where, and in all such soules by grace, and so he clan∣seth more cleanely then any bodye or figure may clense, and herefore as Poule sayth, Christ is mediator of the newe lawe, &c. Agayne vpon 2. Cor. 3. Seeth mans thinking a∣monge his werkes, seemeth moste in his power, and yet his thought mote come of God, much more eche other werke of man &c. Thus should we put of pride and wholly trusten in Iesu Christ, for he that may not thinke of him selfe, may doe nought of him selfe, but all our sufficiencie is of God by the meane of Iesu Christ. Likewise vpon the 8. to the Ro∣manes. Sith God susteyneth man and moueth him and hel∣peth him for to trauell, how had it not come of grace, and thus reward of this trauell mote needes all come of grace.
These places and many other shewe that Wicklefe was not ignorant of the righteousnes of fayth. It seemeth therefore that Melancthon had seene only the articles which his aduersaries had gathered against him, and not his owne writings and discourses.

The prophecyes, which Bristow boasteth to be for their religion, be of Ieremye and Esay, for the perpe∣tuall continuance of the true Church of Christ, but se∣ing it is proued that the popish Church hath not bene from the beginning, those prophecyes appertayne not vnto her. How the Church is visible, is shewed in the 37. motiue whereunto I adde, that while the Papistes glory of a visible Church on earth, Ierusalem that is a∣boue, and therefore not subiect to the eyes of earthly men, but of such whose conuetsation is in heauen, is the mother of vs all. Finally if Bristow coulde as tru∣ly proue, as he doth boldly say, that no Scripture is a∣gainst them, but all for them, he shoulde haue no Pro∣testants to be his aduersaries, who more accept of the authoritie of the holy Scriptures, then of all other mo∣tiues in the world.

Page  123

The 46. motiue is the 39. demaund.

VVhere grewe the Protestants seede before our time. The church hath rehearsed wednesday fast long sithence. A Bishop * is aboue a Priest. The Saincts were of our religion. Baptisme necessarie for saluation of children. Anabaptists. VVhy there be so many Atheistes in England. Trinitaries.

Such seedes of our doctrine (sayth Bristowe) as haue growne before this time, did alwayes growe in euell * grounde, namely in heretikes as denyall of prayer for the deade in Aerius, who beside that errour was an Ar∣rian. He chargeth vs also with denying the ordinarie fast of the church, but that is false. For we hold that the fast which is appointed by the church, ought to be ob∣serued, although we hold that no man is bounde to the blasphemous, superstitious, and counterfait fast of the Popish synagogue. In that time in which Aerius liued, there were other times of fasting appointed, then such as the Popishe church obserueth. But the wedsnesday fast (sayth Bristowe) the church hath released. In what gene∣rall councell good Sir: are you able to shewe: likewise of other times of fast named in Epiphanius? if you be not able to shew this where is either your vniuersalitie, antiquitie, or succession in doctrine and discipline, with∣out interruption.

More thē this (sayth he) Aerius did hold, that a Bishop & a Priest be equall, which also the Protestāts do main∣teyne. In preaching the word and ministring the Sacra∣mentes. S. Hierom Euagrio is of the same opinion that they are equall likewise in Epistad Titum. cap. 1. shewing that a Bishoppe is preferred before a Priest magis eccle∣siae consuetudine quam dispositionis dominicae veritate rather by custome of the church to auoyde schismes, then by truth of the Lordes disposition. Furthermore one of the Protestantes seedes is, that we must not pray to Saints, Page  124 but this was held of certayne heretikes in S. Bernardes time who were called Apostolici & were also Anabap∣tistes, denying the baptisme of infantes. The conclu∣sion is, that these opinions can not be good, because they are founde in some heretikes. And the contrary opinion must needes be true, because they are found in some holy men, as in S. Athanasius, Epiphanius, Au∣gustine. &c. Although these opinions are but fewe in comparison of so many articles of religion, in whiche we dissent from the Papistes, which if they coulde be founde in heretikes, we should soone heare of them: yet what Logike is in this conclusion of Bristow, you shall see by examples of the like, and euen of the same heretikes. Aerius, as Augustine reporteth out of Phila∣stre, did also receiue into his felowship none but suche as wete continent, and had so renounced the worlde, that they possessed nothing in common, likewise they abstayned from fleshe. The very same doth Bernarde report of the heretikes called Apostolike, that they re∣reuerenced mariage, and abstayned from all flesh and whitemeates. In canti. ser. 66. This diuelishe seede pro∣phecied before to be the note of Antichristian hypo∣crites, grew in many heretikes before the time of the Papistes, and not these only, but many other also. Wor∣shipping of Images in Carpocratians Ep. 1. lib. 1. T. 2. pre∣fat. contr. Gnostic. 27. 29.

The superstitious estimacion of the crosse in the Va∣lentinians Epiph. Ho. 31. Transubstantiation of the wine into blood in Marcus and the Marcosians Ireaeus lib. 1 cap. 9. Prayer for the deade in the Montanistes. Tert. de Monon. & de Anima. &c. Inuocation of Angells in the Caianites and many other Popishe plantes were first sowne by the deuill in elder heretikes. And yet were this no good argument to confute these opinions or errors, because they are founde in heretikes, except they were found to be contrarie to the word of God. All is no he∣resie, whatsoeuer an heretike hath affirmed, for there was neuer heretike, but affirmed much truth, neither is Page  125 all truth that is affirmed by euery Sainct and holy man, for not one of the ancient writers but is acknowledged to haue affirmed some vntruth. Only the holy Scripture ought to haue this preheminence, as Augustine sayth, that it may iudge of all sayings and writings, it selfe be∣ing iudged of none, because it is the word of God which can not erre or be deceaued. Cont. Crescon. gram. lib. 2. cap.••. But Bristowe hath Scripture to proue that he which denyeth prayer for the dead, being found among the Arrians & Anabaptists, can not choose but be boūd in bundells with them and cast into the fire. Mat. 13. In deede he that is an Arrian or Anabaptist shal not escape for denying prayer for the deade. But the Angells that are the reapers, are not so vnskilfull, but that they can discerne true Christians denying the abuse of prayers for the dead, which the Scripture doth not admit, from blasphemous heretikes, among a great number of false∣hoodes affirming some truth.

But it is a sore matter, that he sayth, The verie worst sorte of heretikes of this time, as the Anabaptistes, Trinita∣ries, yea the verie Epicures and Atheistes, were first Prote∣stantes, ye such they be and will seeme to be still. He had spoken more truly, if he had sayd they were first Pa∣pistes. But what heretikes and Atheistes woulde seeme to be, it is no dishonor to our cause, seeing all hypocrits would seeme to be true Christians. That only Papistes are troubled in our countrie, and all other sectes tol∣lerated and mainteyned the publike execution and punishment of Anabaptistes and other blasphemous sectes as the Familie of Loue &c. doth playnly proue to be false, and Bristow to be a shamelesse slaunderer.

The 47. motiue is the 50. demaund.

Sure to continue. The church is euerlasting and visible. * Protestants do decay and shall come to nothing. The churches Page  126continuaunce. S. Augustines motiue. England beware destru∣ction. Luther was a false Prophet.

I neede not to shewe, how often and how vainly Bri∣stowe repeateth one thing, to make a great number of motiues. The euerlasting continuaunce of the true church hath bene seuen times at least before alleaged. But neither is it proued that the Popish church is that true church, nor yet that any sect or companie which shall continewe to the ende of the worlde is the Catho∣like church of Christ. For although Antichrist is and shall be more and more consumed with the breath of the Lordes mouth, which is his holie worde yet shall he not be altogether abolished vntill the ende of the worlde. Yea at the ende of the worlde, as our Sa∣uiour Christ sayeth, fayth shall be verie scant, and hard to be founde, and iniquitie shall haue the vpper hande. Therefore there shall be a great church of malignant hypocrytes euen to the ende of the worlde. It is true therefore, that Christes church is sure to continewe but not whatsoeuer sect shall continew, is thereby pro∣ued to be Christes true church. How vayne his bragge is, that Protestantes doe decaye: and shall come to no∣thing, by their dayly increase in all partes of the world, God be thanked may be seene to all men. Likewise how true it is, which he affirmeth that Papistes doe increase, and to such numbers euen in Englande that there are more Papistes nowe, then when the Gospell was first preached, (notwithstandinge so many yeares prea∣ching of vs and large silence of them) who liuing in Englande can be ignoraunt? I confesse there are too many obstinate Papistes in Englande whome none of Bristowes motiues, hath either moued vnto Poperie, or confirmed therein, but onely great tolleration and lenitie which is vsed in these times. But if such seueri∣tie were vsed nowe, as in times past, the Pope shoulde not haue many confessors in Englande to glorie of. And to say the truth, what one of these Papistes, dare Page  127 professe what he thinketh of the Popes auctoritie, be∣cause the lawe is somewhat sharpe in that poynt. If the like lawe were of hearing masse we should haue as fewe suffer for masse as for the supremacie. But to re∣turne to our motiue

S. Augustine doth well to send Ho∣noratus the Manichee to followe that way of Catho∣like doctrine which from Christ him selfe by the Apo∣postles is descended vnto vs, and from hence to poste∣ritie shall descende. De vtilit. cred. cap.
8. But that it is not the way of all Popish doctrine which neuer came from Christ, nor his Apostles, nor the most auncient church. And if the tradition be vncerteyne, how shall we know what came from Christ and his Apostles, but that which we finde in the Gospell of Christ and the Epistles of his Apostles.

But the same Augustine (sayeth Bristow) biddeth the simple Donatistes to

Number the Priestes euen from the verie seate of Peter, and in that order of fathers see, who to whom succeeded. That same is the rocke which the prowde gates of Hell doe not ouercome P. S. contra Donatistas.
Augustine speaketh of the Catholike church, which was the vine, whereof the Church of Rome at that tyme was but a growing braunch. For a litle before he sayth,
Scitis Catholica quid sit, & quid sit precisum a vite. You knowe what the Catholike church is, and what is that which is cut of from the vine. But if Bristowe shoulde vrge the seate of Peter to be called of Augustine the rocke, Augustine in his retractations confesseth that he oftentimes hath expounded the rocke to be Christ, and so will not abide by that former exposition Retract.
lib. 1. cap. 21. Neither did Augustine euer meane that the see of Peter at Rome was a rocke in such sorte, that none that euer should sit there, coulde erre, for he him selfe, with the rest of the fathers of the councell of Car∣thage withstood ye Bishop of Rome, claiming iurisdictiō in Africa by coullour of a coūterfet decree of the coun∣cell of Nice. Conc. Carth. 6. cap. 4. Concil. ••phr Ep. ad Celest. what shoulde I heere repeate Pope Honorius condem∣ned Page  128 for an heretike, not only in the generall councell of Constantinople the 6. but also in the Idolatrous coūcell of Nice the 2. and Iohn the 23. condemned for an A∣theist in the councell of Gonstance. If the gates of hell preuayled not manifestly against that seate, yea and so many other Bishoppes thereof, whom they them selues confesse to be damned in hell for their wicked life: we neede not greatly be affrayed of the gates of hell. Yea (sayth Bristow) It hath bene impugned ten thousand times more then any other, but all in vayne, frustra circumlatranti∣bus haereticis sayth S. Augustine. In vayne is the barking of heretikes all about it. De vtil cred. cap. 17. But the place of Augustine which he citeth, is of the Church of Christ and not of Peters seate, round about the which, the he∣retikes haue barked in vaine. For euen in that seate, but yet out of the Church, Liberius had barked Arrianisme, Marcellus gentilisme, and after his time Honorius bar∣ked with the Monothelits as his epistle which remay∣ned after his death declared. Vigilius also by his epistle was proued to barke Euty chianisme, Liberat. cap. 22. Iohn the 23. barked with the Sadduces against the resurrecti∣on of the dead, cont. Constanti. sect. 11. The see of Rome therefore is no more the rocke against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile, then the see of Canterbury or London. But sayth Bristowe who can saye that there shall be alwayes a Byshoppe of Canterburye or Lon∣don? Verely, no more can any man saye, that there shall alwayes bee a Byshop of Rome. And whosoeuer sayth, that there hath beene alwayes since Peter a By∣shop of Rome, shall lye moste impudently. For the See hath often lyn voyde, not onely for a short time, while a newe Byshop might be chosen: but many yeers togither. Againe the See hath beene translated from Rome to Auinion, and the Popes Court kepte there for threescore yeeres togither by which it is manifest both that the Citie of Rome hah not beene the perpetuall See of Peters successours, and that Peters successors haue erred in remouing their Courte from that Citie, Page  129 which Peter chose to be heade of the worlde and Con∣stantine gaue (as they say) to be the head of the church, which might haue forborne so great a gift like as Peter also might haue spared his trauell in remouing his see from Antioch to Rome, if they coulde haue foreseene that the Popes court might haue bene kept as well in Fraunce, as in Italie, at Auinion as at Rome.

But Luther is charged to be a false Prophet, for that he sayth in his booke against King Henry,

That he was sure that he had his doctrines from heauē. That his do∣ctrine should stand and the Pope should fall. That God should see whether first be wery and faile, the Pope or Luther.
The note of a false Prophet in Deu. 18 is to geue a signe which doth not follow, & so hath Luther doone sayth Bristow. For Zwinglius hath ouercome Luther & Caluine Zwinglius and the Puritans the Protestants in England. To this I aunswere, that Luther doth not take vpon him to foreshew things to come by any speciall re∣uelatiō, but only affirmeth that his doctrine in as much as it is agreable to the word of God, is from heauen, & shall continewe, whereas the Popes doctrine being the doctrine of the deuill shall come to naught. And in this victorie, (if he please so to tearme it) hath not the Pope loste by preuayling of Zwinglius and Caluine. And was that opinion of Luther which they haue impu∣gned, I meane of the carnall presence Luthers or the Popes? But whereas ye slanderous hypocrite, would make men think, that Caluine hath opposed himselfe against the doctrine of Zwinglius, the cōsent of the churches of Heluetia wt them of Sabaudia being publikely set forth to the worlde, doth openly testifie the contrarie. Al∣so the contention of those whom he calleth Puritanes in Englande, is not so great, nor about so great mat∣ters, that any such diuision is to be feared, which might cause desolation of the kingdome. Adde hereunto that Bristow sayd in the 40. motiue, that the Protestantes of England be in a manner all in heart Puritanes, where∣by he confesseth against him selfe, that there can be no Page  130 deadly contention betwene them, that in heart are all one.

The 48. motiue.

How to make playne demonstration that the heretikes haue no euidence & that we haue all. VVho be wresters of the Scri∣ptures. * The inconstancy of the Protestants: The vnderstanding of the Scriptures is in the church.

This wise demonstration is a playne declaration, that * he which made it, knoweth not what a demonstration meaneth, but such as it is, let vs see what is in it.

First he would haue it proponed by a Catholike, to his frend that is in heretike, to be considered, seing al these motiues beginning with holy Scripture, approued tradi∣tions &c. be for them & agai st vs, what is the cause that we cry so shamelesly & deceitfully the Gospel, the word of the Lorde, the touchstone of Gods booke? And least we shoulde say, that he beginneth with a false supposed & shameful begging of the principle, he will proue that all these euidences are for them, and so must the heretike that you wil deale withall be made in the beginning to cōfesse, Yea Sir, but howe will you driue him to this confession? Forsooth sayth Bristow, they all confesse it many wayes indirectly. First in that they vse not the same euidences them selues, in their declarations. Secondly in that they admit no euidence but only Scripture. To the first I answere they vse as much of this euidence, as is good & agreable to the holy Scripture. To the second I say, that if only Scripture be on our side it is more then all the rest against the Scripture, and againe if only Scripture be on ourside, then al the motiues be not on their side, for Scripture is one of them, the 8. in the motiues the first in the de∣maundes. But the Papist must make his frend say as much directly or els say expressely to euery one of them whether he will be tried by them. As a frende to the presones, though Page  131 an enemie to the errours of such Papistes as are cura∣rable. I haue sayd expressely and particularly to euerie one of them, sheweing whether it be a true and proper note of the church, and if it be, that it belongeth to vs and not to them. Although Bristow say, that this way we know full well that they shall haue the victorie flying there∣fore euermore to our weake & false castle of only Scripture. That the scripture onely is our castle, we do gladly ad∣mitte, but that the same is a most strong true & impug∣nable castle, none but a blasphemous heretike will de∣ny. But you must (saith Bristow) still labour to get them (& if you can) with their consent, out of the castle into the plaine fieldes aforesayde, to make them graunt expressely that there in your handes they can not stande. Nay Bristow you must beate vs from our castell if you can, for we will neuer consent to goe out of it for defense, except it be to offer you the aduauntage, not in the playne fieldes as you cal it, but among your pettie piles and small holdes. And so we haue done often. So did that reuerende father the Bishoppe of Salisburie, in that noble challenge where∣in you were shamefullie foyled in your owne grounde and many of your fortes beaten about your eares. But you doe not well to teach your schollers to seeke a gen∣tle aduersarie to fight withall, which must first of all be willing to laye downe his sworde and shielde and then you are good enough for him with your manlie mo∣tiues with which when you haue treandled him about like a tenis ball, you sende him backe agayne to his ca∣stell of onely Scripture, to see whether they will beare him out in his opinions. For example, is not this Scri∣pture manifest inough on your side and agaynst vs? This is my body. This is my blood? Mat. 26. Verily euen as plaine as this. They did all eate the same spirituall meate. They all dronke of the rocke that followed thē & ye rocke was Christ. 1. Cor. 10. They are both one maner of speaking, and both of one matter. Therefore they haue both one meaning. The second exāple is. By works a man is iusti∣fied & not by faith only Iac. 2. And this is also Scripture, Page  132 knowing that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe, but by faith of Iesus Christ Glat. 2. And a∣gayne by grace you are saued through faith (and that not of your selues it is the gift of God) not of workes least any man shoulde boast. The later being in maner of speaking contrarie to the former text doe playnly shewe, that these two Apostles, speake not both of one kinde of faith or iustification. But that Iames speaketh of a dead faith as his wordes are playne Vers. 17. and of iustification before men. Paule of a liuing faith and of iustification in the sight of God. The third example is out of Iames 5. Where I must first note, that Bristow in translation doth manifestly corrupt & falsefie the Scri∣pture. The Latine is, Infirmatur quis in vobis? If any a∣mongest you be daungerously sicke let him send for the Priests of the church and they to pray ouer him anealing him with oyle in the name of our Lord &c. First Bristow addeth this word daungerously of his owne heade, which is neither in the Greeke nor vulgare Latine text, to draw the text of Iames violently, to their popish greasing which they vse only when a man is desperatly sicke, and past hope of recouerie in thei iudgement. Whereas Iames spea∣keth generally, of any kinde of sickenes, wherewith any of the faithfull were molested. Secondly Bristowe lea∣ueth out the wordes following, which are these and the prayer of faith shall saue the sicke person and the Lord shall restore him or raise him vp, the Latine is alleiabit shall ease him, which wordes declare, that the Apostle speaketh not of a perpeuall Sacrament of the church, but of a ceremonie vsed by them that had a speciall gift of healing the sicke in the primitiue Churche whiche ceremonie must needes cease, with the gift except it be among apes, that practise outward gesture and actions, without effect. The other two examples out of the 2. of Machabees the one of praying for the deade, the o∣ther of Ieremie praying for the people, are no partes of the castell of Canonicall Scripture, and therefore with other errours in the same bookes I omit them. The Page  133 last exāple is out of Genesis 48. The saying of Iacob the Patriarke of Iosephs two childrē. God who hath fed me from my youth euen to this day: The Angell who hath deliuered me out of all aduersities, blesse these children which is (sayth Bristow) as if one would say, God and our Ladie blesse them. Nay rather God by Iesus Christ blesse them, for what other Angell but Christ the Angell of the great councell was the deliuerer of Iacob, which when he wrestled with him in a vision and mystery Gen. 32. he doubted not to call God. Euen the same Angell which led the children of Israel through the wildernes, whō S. Paul 1. Cor. 10. calleth Christ, who was not an An∣gel by nature but by office, & in that as the Mediator he was sent to deliuer the people before he came in the flesh. But if we should vnderstand, the Angell of whom Iacob speaketh, for sōe priuate Angel, appointed of God to protect him, yet is it not as if one would say now God & our Lady blesse thē. For that God vseth the ministery of Angels to defend & prosper his seruaunts, but not the ministery of Saincts in heauē, for any such purpose that we can learne by the holy Scriptures. Iacob might ther∣fore pray yt God would send his Angell to protect those children, euen as he had done for him. As for that vaine brag that all Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalipse is for thē & against vs, is no∣thing els but a false alarme, as though he woulde on all sides assalt our castel of only Scriptures, wheras he pur∣poseth nothing lesse. But this can not be borne, that he sayeth some places of Scripture be so playne against vs, that we can not aunswere them but by plucking the pen of the holy Ghost out of his hand that wrote thē mea∣ning that we deny the auctority of such books as be not Canonicall the Machabees especially. But this he sayth can not be. For either they are proued muncibly to be of the holy Ghostes indighting, or no Scripture at all is proued to be suche as you may remember the common saying of S. Augu∣stine. Ego Euangelio non crederem &c. I shoulde not beleue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse the Catholike Churches auctoritiePage  134did compell. What shall I say to this impudent blasphe∣mer that alloweth none other tryall of holy Scripture but the authoritie of the Church, because Augustine supposing that hee were an Heathen, Againe (sayth he would not beleeue the Gospell except the authori∣tie of the Church, with other thinges did moue him: his woorde is Commoueret whiche Bristowe not so ignorauntly as impudently translateth did compl mec. But the Catholike Church (saith Bristow) hath receiued these bookes of equall authoritie with the rest. Indeede the Synagogue of Antichrist in the Tridentine coun∣cell hath so decreede. But the Catholike Church of Christ did neuer receiue them, as I haue shewed out of Hicronime. praef in Prouerb and others whereto I may adde the iudgement of Origine out of Eusebhist: lib. 6. cap. 18. tran. Russ. with the councell o Laodicea. Can. 59.

Marke the plainenesse of this demonstration, when the question & cōtrouersie is, whether they or we be the chuch. All scriptur is for them & against vs because the church that is, they haue thus & thus decrede, No mer∣uail therfore if Bristow appeale to the iudgmēt of indi∣fferent mē, that al our prating of ye scriptures is nothing else but as S. Peter saith of S. Paules Epistles) our wrest∣ing and writhing of them by our owne vnlearnednes & vnstablenes, from the Catholike Churches vnitie and vniuersalitie to the scisme and peece of Luther, & from thēce to Caluine &c For the Church is the setled and vnmoueable rock, against which ther is no scripture no trueth but all for it.

This is good a demonstratiō, as if a man should say to a vessel tossed in the brode sea with wind & waues, that in the hauen there is great rest & securitie, but not shew what course they should keepe to come thither. We by the only true lodestone Pharos, and heauenly Cynosu∣ra of the holy scriptures (we praise his holy name ther∣fore) haue founde the moste happy hauen of the holy Catholick Church of Christ, & by his helpe haue caste out the Anchor of Faith so surely fixed not in the sand, Page  135 but in the Hauen it selfe, that all the Cables of popishe motiues, or blasts of Diuelish doctrines shal not be able to stirre our ship from thence: which course God graūt them to keepe, who labouring in the sea of doubtfulnes, ride not wilfully among the rocks of Romish pride, nor be obstinately set on the sands of mens traditions, but seeke trueth in humilitie to Gods glory & their safetie.

Besids these motiues there are two demands which I cannot aptely reduce to any of the Motiues, namely the seconde which he termeth the building of the Church, and the laste which hee calleth Apostasie. In the former demaund he asketh vs whether we haue not read this argument vsed by Chrisostome againste the Painims and Iewes, that Christe is God, because his Church hauing but a small beginning, & many stronge enemyes, to withstand the building thereof, yet could or can neuer be suppressed, but contrariwise of a litle spark hath set all the world on fire &c. I answere, we haue read this argument, and allowe of it. Then sayth Bristowe, How hath it beene these many hundreth yeeres quite suppres∣sed, yea and in Chrisostomes time no Church at all I answere that since it was first set vp, it was neuer for one houre quite suppressed, although by Antichriste these many hundred yeeres it hath beene greatly oppressed. And in Chrysostomes time the Church did openly florishe, although infected with some errors, yet holding strong∣ly the only tradition Iesus Christ, which church was a member of the same vniuersall Church, whereof our Church at this day is a parte, with which Church in Chrysostoms time, the popish church in that it dissēteth from vs, hath nothing cōmon except one or two errors, hauing the whole substance of doctrine contrary vnto it: wherefore that argument stāding, the popish church is nothing vnderpropped thereby: which though it had a small beginning, as the sect of Mahomet, yet grew it by sufferance of God, without great withstanding of strong enemies, yea God sending the effecacy of error, that it might preuaile and yet hath not increased ouer all he Page  136 world, but is for the most part contained in one parte of Europa deminishing where it is punished as in Ger∣many, Sauoy, Denmarke, Swetia and Englande, grow∣ing onely where it is either mayntained by tyranny or tollerated by lenitie.

And now to the laste demaund of Apostasie, wher∣with he chargeth vs. Firste for chaunging the Priest∣hoode, wherevpon must insue a chaunge of the law. so this I aunswere, we haue chaunged no priesthoode, in∣stituted by God, but retaine that eldership and ministe∣ry ordayned by our Sauiour Christe. Contrarywise the Pope hath changed Sacerdotium (which Bristowe con∣fesseth to be no other thing then presbiteratum) which is the ministration of the Gospel yet commonly called both of him and vs Priesthood, that Sacrificing priest∣hood I say wc the Apostle He. 7. affirmth to be euerlast∣ing and proper to the person of our Sauiour Christe, hath the Pope translated vnto his shaueli gs, and sette them vp to offer that Sacrifice which Christ only could offer, and by once offering found eternall redemption: yea the Priesthood of Melchisedech which the Lord by an othe confirmed only to our sauiour Christ. Psal. 100. Hee hath made common to all his Massemongers, Therfore the Pope hath manifestly made an Apostacy from the lawe of Christ.

The second argument by which Bristow would charge vs with Apostasie is, for receiuing not one or two, but so ma∣ny olde heresies, besides as he is bolde to say a thousand more of their owne inuention. This beeing affirmed without all shew of proofe. It shall suffice to deny and turne o∣uer vnto him and his fellowes.

The third argument is for taking from Christian men, so many arguments of Christes diuinitie, as the inuincible con∣tinuaunce and authoritie of his Church. The honor and ver∣tue of crosses and reliques miracles, exorcismes, vnitie, Sa∣crifice &c. I aunswere so many of these as are good and sufficient argumentes, wee holde still, the vnsufficient arguments doe rather disfornish then arme the Chri∣stians Page  137 faith, which we haue so strongly fortified with arguments out of the holy scriptures that all the power of darkenesse cannot preuaile against it,

The fourth argument is, for leauing nothing vndenyed, not Fathers, not Councels, not Traditions, not Scriptures, nor (the onely witnesse of all canonicall Scriptures) the Churches institution, and departing from the Fathers of all ages since Christes time, agreeing with no Christian time, nor none with them. For denying of canonicall Scriptures, it is an impudent slaunder, as for Fathers, Councelles, Traditions, Churches authoritie, we affirme or deny, as they agree or dissagree with the trueth of the holye scriptures, the onely certaine witnesse of the will of God reuealed vnto men, which we thinke more rea∣sonable then the Papistes doe, whiche denie, fathers, Councels, Traditions, yea the authoritie of the holy Scriptures, and submit all vnto the idgement of their Church, now when then the controuersie is, whether they be the Church of God, or of the Deuill: whereas the Scriptures are of bothe partes confessed to be the worde of God in generall termes, although in compa∣rison of the authoritie of their Church, Piggius calleth the holy Scripture a nose of Wax, and a dumbe iudge. Eccius tearmeth the written gospel a black Gospel and an inkish diuinitie. Hosius sayth, that this commaun∣dement of Christe, Drinke ye all of this, beeing vnder∣stoode doth appertaine vnto laye men, contrary to their Churches determination, is the expresse worde of the Deuill. And for departing from the faith of the Fathers &c. I aunswere it is false, there is but one true Faith of all true Christians, in al times from which wee will neuer departe, although wee haue departed from some erroneous opinions of some fathers, which because they are contrary to the woorde of God, by hearing whereof Faith commeth, they deserue not the name of Faith.

Finally, whereas hee sayth, the authoritie of the Church is the onely witnesse of all canonicall Scrip∣tures, Page  138 it is vntrue. For although he should meane not the popish Sinagogue, butthe true catholike church of Christ, yet is it not the onely witnesse of the Scrip∣tures. For euen the Iewish Synagogue, is witnesse of the olde testament, and many sectes of heresies of all the scripture, beside that the spirit of God is the chiefe and principall witnes of all, which speaketh so euidently in allthe canonical scripture, that if all mē on earth should refuse to giue credite vnto them, yet his maiestie alone is sufficient to get credite vnto them, especially with all those whome he teacheth inwardly in heart, as he spea∣keth sensibly to their eares.

The last argument is, That in place of all Religion and goodnes which they haue remoued, deuising a new Gospel of their foresaid onely vaine fayth, which teacheth all sinnes & all heresies to presume of saluation. What can bee more impudent or false then this slaunder, seeing God and the worlde knoweth, that wee teach none other Faith but the fayth of the Gospell, which worketh by loue, and promiseth remission of sinnes and saluation to none, but such as earnestly repent, and are wil∣ling to remoue all heresie, and to im∣brace all true Christian Religi∣on and goodnesse.

God be praysed.