The answere vnto the nine points of controuersy, proposed by our late soueraygne (of famous memory) vnto M. Fisher of the Society of Iesus And the reioynder vnto the reply of D. Francis VVhite minister. With the picture of the sayd minister, or censure of his writings prefixed.

Knowledge of prayers made to them communi∣cable, & communicated vnto Saints. §. 3.

THE second cause why Protestants dislike praying to Saints, is, for that they thinke by teaching, that Saints heare our petitiōs, we attribute vnto thē know∣ledge proper to God onely. For Saints can∣not know all prayers made to them with∣out seeing at once what is done in euery part of the world, nor know the sincere de∣uotion wherwith they are done, without seeing the secret affection of mens harts. But to know what is done in all parts of the world, & the secrets of harts, is know∣ledge proper to God.

To this exception answer is made, that knowledge proper to God is of two kinds, the one so proper as it is altogether incō∣municable with any creature, and such is the comprehension of his diuine Essence. The secōd is proper so, that naturally crea∣tures are not capable therof, yet the same may be imparted vnto them by a superna∣turall light, eleuating them to a high & di∣uine state aboue the possibility of nature. In this kind is the visiō of the diuine essen∣ce face to face, which being by nature pro∣per vnto God onely, is by grace granted vnto Saints. And if this vision be commu∣nicated vnto Saints, the sight of the inferi∣our world, and of the secrets of hart, is without cause reputed incommunicable with them, according to the saying of S. Prosper: (k) 1.1 Nothing is so secret as the know∣ledge therof may be denyed vnto the perfectly blessed, their seing God with pure vnderstan∣ding being without comparison a thing more excellent.

Thus S. Prosper, whose argument doth cōuince that Saints may know both what is done in the world & the secrets of harts. First, as concerning the world, to see the whole world and all in it, is not higher knowlege, nor requires a more perfect vn∣derstanding, then to see face to face the di∣••••ne Essence, immense and incomprehen∣••••ble, before whome the world is no more ••••en (l) 1.2 momentum staterae, & gutta roris

antelucani. But the Saints of God (accor∣ding to Christian fayth) haue an eleuated vnderstanding, able to behold (m) 1.3 cleerly and distinctly the diuine Essence, with the infinite (n) 1.4 beautyes and perfections ther∣of. How then can a Christian conceaue so meanely of them as to doubt whether they haue sufficient (o) 1.5 vnderstāding to behold things done in this inferiour world, as far as they belōg to their state? Secondly as for the secrets of harts, God is without com∣parison more spirituall, more secret, more inuisible, and out of the sight of naturall vnderstanding then is any the most secret thought of man, or Angell; and yet the Saints haue so cleere penetrating, & all dis∣couering light, as they do most perspicuou∣sly discerne the diuine, hidden, & vnsear∣chable Essence. What reason is there then why Christians should think the secrets of mens harts inuisible and vnsearchable vn∣to them? If we looke into Scripture, as the heart (p) 1.6 of man is sayd to be vnsearchable but to God only, so God likewise is sayd to

be (q) 1.7 inuisible, but only to himselfe; so that to Saints, togeather with the sight of harts, we must deny the sight of God, or els interprete the sayings of Scripture, that mans hart, and God are inuisible, to wit, by meere naturall light, and that both are vi∣sible vnto Saints, by that light whereof the Prophet sayd; (r) 1.8 In thy light we shall see the light. If there were a (s) 1.9 glasse of dia∣mant so cleere and excellent that whatsoe∣uer is done in London in secretest corners should therein particularly and distinctly appeare, surely he that hath eyes to see that glasse, may likewise discerne what is done ouer the Citty. Now, most certayne it is, that in God all creatures, all actions done in the world, and all the most secret thoughts of harts, so perspicuously and di∣stinctly shine as they are in themselues. So that the Saints hauing light to see the di∣uine Essence, may in him cleerly discerne whatsoeuer is done in the world belōging to their state though neuer so secret, ac∣cording to the saying of S. (t) 1.10 Basil; There is not any Saint which doth not see all thinges that are done any where in the world. And of S. (u) 1.11

Gregory: Nothing is done about any creature which they cannot see who see the clarity of their Creatour. And agayne; (x) 1.12 We must belieue that they who see the clarity of the omnipotent God within themselues, are not ignorant of any thing that is done without. Which doctrine of the Fathers, that Protestants may the lesse dislike, I proue to be grounded on the Scri∣ptures.

First, if Saints by reason of their blisse∣full state do so participate of the diuine na∣ture and wisdome,* 1.13 as they communicate with him in the power of gouerning the nations of the world;* 1.14 then Saints haue knowledge of things that are done in this world, else how could they be able to go∣uerne and rule it? But Scripture in playne and expresse tearmes make Saints partici∣pate with Christ in the rule and gouerne∣ment of the world, according to his pro∣mise (y) 1.15 Apocalip. 2.26. To him that con∣quereth I will giue power ouer nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, that is, with power of inflexible equity. And Apocal. 3. v. 12. I will make him a pillar in the Tēple of my God. And the blessed say of them∣selues Apoc. 5.10. that they were chosen out of countreys and nations to be Priests of God, & that they should rule with him vpon the earth. Therfore they know what is done vpon earth, so far forth at least, as the affayres of earth doe specially apper∣taine vnto them; and such without doubt

are our deuotions towardes them.

Secondly, S. Paul Cor. 14.26. sayth: Now we know but in part, we prophesy but in part, but when that of perfection shall come, that of part shall be euacuated: I know now but in part, thē I shall know as I am known. By which words the Apostle signifyes that all knowledge both humane & diuine, particularly the gift of Prophesy is contayned eminently in the beatificall ••ight; so that the blessed Saints haue the gift of Prophesy in a more excellent degree thē had the Prophets in this world. But by the light of Prophesy holy men vnited with God, could see the secrets of harts, as S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 14.15. By the gift of Prophe∣sy the secrets of harts are manyfested; and also see things absent being present by light of vnderstāding, frō whence they were ab∣sent

according to their substance (z) 1.16 The Prophet Elizaeus 4. Reg. 5.16. saw in absence what passed betwixt his seruant Giezi,* 1.17 and Naman, to whome he sayd, My hart was there present with thee. With farre greate reason (sayth Saint (*) 1.18 Augustine l. 22. de ci∣uit. c. 29.) The Saints of God euen with eies of body closed vp shall see all things, not onely pre∣sent, but also from which they are corporally ab∣sent; for then shall be that perfection where the Apostle saith, we now prophesy but in pa••••

••ut then the imperfect shall be euacuated (a) 1.19. This is that which S. Hierome doth defend To earnestly against Vigilantius, that the soules of the Martyrs are present where their shrines and reliques are, & neuer ab∣sent but still ready to heare the prayers of their suppliāts, not thinking that they are present in so many places substantially ac∣cording to their soules, but that they are presēt, as Elizaeus was present vnto Giezi in Spirit, beholding what passed as cleerly as if they were corporally present.

Thirdly, it is cleerely to be proued by Scripture, that holy Angels see the pray∣ers and actions, and affections of men. In the Apocalip. c. 8.4. An Angell offered vnto God the prayers of men, which he could not haue done, had he not knowne them (b) 1.20.

Our Sauiour witnesseth Luc. 15.10. That the Angells reioyce at the conuersion of a sinner. So they must needs know it, nor can they know it without knowing the sinners harte (c) 1.21, Conuersion not being true, no•• worthy of ioy, except it proceed from the hart (d) 1.22. S. Paul sayth we are made a spe∣ctacle vnto God and Angells, & he adiu∣reth Timothy by God and his Angells, which sheweth that we liue in the sight of Angels, & that they behold what we doe, and heare what we say euen in our harts. But as the same Scripture Luc. 20.36. Math. 22.30. auerreth, the Saints are like vnto the Angells, and equall vnto the Angells. And in heauē the same is the measure of a man & of an Angell, Apocal. 21.17. Aug. ep. 112. Ergo, knowledge of our prayers is not to be denyed to glorious Saints the fellowes of Angells. Neither could Saints without knowledge of humane affaires be perfect∣ly blessed, Blessednes being a state wherin all iust and reasonable desires of nature are satisfyed with vttermost content, accor∣ding to that of the Psalme. 16.15. Satiabor cùm apparuerit gloria tua. And who can

thinke that Saints full of glory and chari∣ty do not earnestly desire (e) 1.23 to know such things as may concerne their honour done vpon earth, & the state of their freinds & ••ouers liuing in danger, to succour them by their intercessions, of whose saluation they be still sollicitous, though secure of their own, as S. Cyprian writes.

Wherefore our doctrine, that Saints see our prayers, being deliuered so constantly by the Ancient Fathers, so conformable vnto the principles of Christian beliefe a∣bout the blessednes of Saints, so consonāt vnto expresse passages of Scripture, we may iustly expect, that vnto Protestants it would not be displeasing did they looke on it with vnpartiall eyes: Specially they ha∣uing no Text of Scripture that may make

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so much as a shew of direct opposition a∣gaynst it. The place continually obiected out of the Prophet Esay 63.16. Abraham knew vs not (f) 1.24, Israel was ignorant of vs, thou O Lord art our Father, thou our Redeemer, hath this sense: Abraham and Iacob, when they liued vpon earth, and carnally begot chil∣dren, did not know particularly their po∣sterities, and so could not beare them such particular affection; whereas God can, & doth distinctly see, and know their necessi∣tyes aforehand, yea before men are borne, and prouides agaynst them, deliuering his children out of thē. And therfore he is the only Father, the only Redeemer, Abraham and Iacob not deseruing the name of Fa∣ther, in comparison with God. Makes this against the Saints hearing our prayers (g) 1.25?

Notes

• (k) 1.1

  De vita Contempl. l. 5. c. 4. Non latebit beatos aliquid secretorū, quod est longè praestantius puris cordibus visuri sunt Deum.
• (l) 1.2

  Sap. 12. ••. 2••.3.
• (m) 1.3

  1. Cor. 13.12.
• (n) 1.4

  Ioan. 3.2.
• (o) 1.5

  These arguments are broght not to proue that the Saints haue this knowledge, but only that this know∣ledge is not so proper of God, but creatures may by grace be parti∣cipant thereof. Wher∣fore the Minister seing the Iesuite to demon∣strate his purpose a∣gaynst Protestants, to wit, the knowledge of thinges done in all parts of the world, and of secrets of hart to be cōmunicable vnto B. Creatures, and this so cleerly as he had not what to reply, he per∣uerteth all these argu∣ments, affirming pag. 305. l. 1. That the Iesuite argueth in this sort: Saints see the face of God. Ergo, They behold the secrets of harts. and lin. 17. That his argument is, They which know or see the greater, under∣stand and behold the lesse. But the Saints behold the Essence of God which is greater. Ergo. These be the Ministers fictions, not the Iesuits arguments. For to proue that the blessed may see secrets of hart, and all thinges done in the world, the Iesuite argueth in this manner vnanswerably. They that haue sufficient vnderstanding for greater and more excellent knowledge, haue sufficient vnderstanding for lesser knowledge; and if greater knowledge be not aboue the eleuated capacity of a creature, then lesser is not. But Saints haue sufficient vnderstanding for the cleere vision of God, and so this knowledge, the greatest of all others, is not perfection aboue that of which creatures are capable by grace. Therfore, knowledge of all things done in all parts of the world, and of secrets of hart, which is lesse high, excellent, and difficill then the vision of God, is communicable by grace vnto creatures: and consequently the Protestants vulgar Argument, that Catholikes make Saints equall vnto God, by teaching that they see mens harts, and all thinges done in the world, is friuolous.
• (p) 1.6

  Hierem. 17.9.
• (q) 1.7

  Coloss. 1.15.3. 1. Timoth. 1.17.
• (r) 1.8

  Psal. 35.10.
• (s) 1.9

  This doctrine of the Glasse, or Mirrour, is brought to shew the possibility how things may be seene in God, not to prooue that of necessity they are seen: and so the Minister might haue spared the paper in citing the o∣pinions of Schoolemē cōcerning the doctrin of the Volūtary glasse.
• (t) 1.10

  Basil. lib. de Virgin.
• (u) 1.11

  Greg. hom. 40. Qui creatoris sui claritatem vident, nihil in crea∣tura agitur, quod vide∣re non possint.
• (x) 1.12

  Lib. 12. Moral. c. 13.
• * 1.13

  About the first Argument.
• * 1.14

  This argument is strong, and you by strugling make the strength thereof more appeare. You haue de∣uised 3. solutions. First you say pag. 311. lin. 10. That the Iesuits exposition is nouell, and neuer heard of in the ancient Church. Answer. It is ridiculous when you are pressed with the cleere text of Scripture to call vpon the anciēt Church; you I say, who still, special∣ly in this question, ap∣peale from the ancient Fathers vnto the Scri∣pture, as pag. 302. and 298. you say that it is not iust to make ancient cu∣stome a law & rule of right doctrine. And if you will stand to the rule of antiquity, I can pro∣duce more then fifty ancient Fathers that in expresse tearmes teach the doctrine the Iesuit doth establish by the literall sense of Gods word, to wit, that saints deceased are rulers and go∣uernours of mens actions & liues. Secondly, you say pag. 309. that the text of the Apocalyps, To him that shall haue con∣quered I will giue him po∣wer &c. is not vnderstood of Saints deceased, but of liuing Saints. Answere. This to be false is ap∣parent, by the very words which are these. Apoc. 226. He that shall haue conquered & kept my words VNTIL THE END, to him I will giue power ouer nations &c. But it is cleer that liuing Saints cānot be said to haue conquered, much lesse to haue kept the word of God vntil ••he end. Therfore these words are violently wrested vnto liuing Saints. Thirdly, you say pag. 320. lin. 3. That the promise, I will giue them power ouer ••ations, is vnderstood only of iudiciary power in the day of iudgement. Answer. This ••o be false, is proued by the rule of interpretation of Scriptures, which ••rotestants commend and praise aboue all other, to wit, when a text is ••oubtfull, the same must be expounded by another which speakes of the ••••me matter, specially when the darke text doth expressely allude vnto ••he cleerer. This place of the Apocalips about Saints, I will giue them power ••uer nations, and they shall rule them in a rod of iron, & they shall be broken in peeces ••••ke pots of clay, seemeth darke vnto Protestants, and the question is, whe∣••her this be spoken of Saints power in the militant Church, or onely of ••he day of Iudgment? To cleer this doubt, there is another text of Scrip∣ture vttered in the same words, to wit the second Psalme, which saith of Christ, That his father shall giue him nations to be his inheritance, and he shall 〈◊〉〈◊〉 them in a rod of iron, and shall breake them as pots of clay. To this text of the Psalme the place of the Apocalips doth allude. For our Lord in the Apo∣calips promiseth that he will giue to Saints power to gouerne in a rod of iron nations & countryes, as his father promised, & gaue the same power vnto him, to wit in the aforesaid Psalme. But that place of the Psalme is without doubt to be vnderstood of Christs power of gouernement in this world, and of his ruling in the militant Church, as Protestants grant, & it appeareth by the wordes precedent, I will giue thee nations to be thine in∣heritance, and thou shalt rule them in a rod of yron. Ergo, the power of gouerning i•• a rod of yron promised to Saints, must be vnderstood, of gouernement in this world and in the militant Church.
• (y) 1.15

  Because the Mini∣ster doth so much in∣sult that the Iesuit hath not proued any thinge by Scripture, I will (that his folly may ap∣peare) examine particu∣larly his answere vnto these texts.
• (z) 1.16

  The Minister se∣keth two wayes to euade. First by deny∣ing that blessed Saints haue the knowledge of prophesy in a more ex∣cellent and permanent manner then haue the Prophets in this life. This is plaine against the words of the Apostle cited by the Answerer. For the Apostle affirm•• that the gift of Prophesy in this life is but ex parte, imperfect in respect of th•• Prophesy and knowledge of the next, which the blessed enioy. Ex parte prophe••••∣mus, tunc cognoscam sicut & cognitus sum. Secondly, he sayth, though the ble∣sed haue the gift of Prophesy eminently, it doth not follow that the•• haue the exercise thereof according to euery materiall obiect it had in th•••• life. I Answere, that the Saynts of God hauing the gift of Prophesy pe••∣manently & eminently, & as knowledge pertinent vnto their Blisseful state must thereby know any secret they desire to know, & which belō∣geth to their state, & such are the prayers of the liuing made vnto them
• * 1.17

  About the 2. Argument.
• (*) 1.18

  Videbunt sancti omnia clausis oculis, etiā vnde sunt corpore absen••••••
• (a) 1.19

  To Answere the Ministers Cauill, that the place of S. Augustine is vnderstood onely of Saints after their resur∣rection; Note, that al∣though the Father na∣me the Saints in their glorified bodyes, yet his reason conuinceth the same of soules that be blessed before the resur∣rection. For his reason why the Saints after the resurrection shal see the secrets of harts, and things frō which they are substātially distant, is because thē they shall Prophesy, not in parte but fully, & euacuabitur quod ex parte est, all im∣perfection of knowledge shall be euacuated; but the deceased soules of Saints now before the resurrection do Prophesy not in part, but know as they are kowne, all imperfection of knowledge being euacuated from them. Ergo, they see things absent, and secrets of harts now, no lesse then they shall do then.
• (b) 1.20

  The Minister pag. 314. lin. 12. saith, this place is vnderstood not of an Angell by nature, but of an Angell by type. Answer. We must vnderstand the word of God in the literall sense, except we can cleerly demonstrate by Scripture the literal sense to be absurd. And this obligation doth more specially lye vpon Protestants, who from perpetuall Tradition appeale vnto Scripture vnderstood by exact conference of places, as vnto the last and supreme Iudge. But you bring not one word of Scripture to proue that in this place an Angell by nature cannot be vnderstood, therfore you runne to types and tropicall senses without warrant of Scripture, by which yet you pretend you will be finally tryed. Are you not then a ridi∣culous, and vaine Appellant?
• (c) 1.21

  The Minister pag. 315. lin. 15. obiects against this argument that holy men on earth reioyce at the conuer∣sion of sinners, yet they know not secrets of harts, therfore this ar∣gumēt is not good: An∣gells reioice in the con∣uersion of sinners: Ergo they know the secret pious affections of mēs harts. Answer. The ioy of iust men in this life is imperfect and mingled with feare, nor do they reioyce in re, in the thing, but in spe, in the hope that mens cōuer∣sions are sincere, and in the outward signes therof. But the blessed Angells ioy is perfect, deuoid of feare, & they reioyce not in the hope but in the thing & con∣uersion it selfe. Ther∣fore they must know the inward piety and deuotion of the soule.
• (d) 1.22

  Although the places speake directly of the Blessed, that they shalbe like vnto Angells in incorruption of body, yet it proueth the same of beatitude of soules. For seeing the glory of body floweth from the glory of the soule, Blessed Saints should not be like to the Angells in glory of body, were they not like, and their equalls in the blessed sight and vision their soules haue of God, and of things contained in him.
• (e) 1.23

  The Minister a∣gainst this replyes pag. 319. saying: That the Saints desire to know no more then it is Gods will they should know. But it cannot be proued by Scrip∣ture, that it is Gods will they should know the things done on earth. Answere. We must still suppose that the courses, and wills of God be suta∣ble to the nature of things, except the con∣trary be cleerly proued. The nature of charity is to desire to know the state of our freinds and their proceedings, and affections towards vs. Ergo, the Saints be∣••ng full of charity are to be supposed to desire to know the state of their ••reinds they left behind them vpon earth, and for whose saluation they ••e sollicitous; except our Minister can cleerly demonstrate the con∣••••ary. And if they desire to know, then they know the particulars. ••or what our Minister sayth pag. 319. lin. 20. That a father in Lon∣••••n may be solicitous about his sonnes safety that is at Constantinople, and yet not ••••ow the particulars, is friuolous: for this London Father is not blessed, & 〈◊〉〈◊〉 he may be desirous to know particulars and not know them, and so be ••erplexed for want of his knowledge. The Saints in heauen are blessed ••nd so desire not to know any thing, but they know it. Therfore seing ••ccording to the instinct and inclination of solicitous Charity, they cannot ••ut desire the knowledge of their friends affaires, they must (if they are ••erfectly blessed) be satisfied in this their charitable desire.
• (f) 1.24

  This place is imper∣tinent also, in regard that Abraham and Ia∣cob, were not thē Bles∣sed nor saw God, from which Blessed vision the knowlege of things done in this world flo∣weth as a sequell in the triumphant Saints. It is vnderstood by S. Hie∣rome in c. 63. Isa. de sci∣entia approbationis, that Abraham & Iacob did not know, that is, e∣steeme and approoue the proceeding of their children the Iewes.
• (g) 1.25

  I desire the Reader to note on the one side how Protestants boast of Scriptures, & on the other how vnable they are to bring one pro∣bable text agaynst In∣uocation of Saints. Whereas contrarywise the places for the Ca∣tholicke doctrine that Saints 〈◊〉〈◊〉 our pray∣ers are so cleere as Pro∣testāts fly to their types and tropes, leauing the literall sense without warrant from the sayd Scripture, and so by ca∣sting a figure euade frō Gods cleere word. Wherfore the cause they appeale vnto Scriptur, is not, because they thinke the Scripture is cleere for them, & not much cleerer for vs; But because by Scrip∣ture they cannot be so cleerly confounded as by Tradition. For a∣bout Scripture Here∣tiks euer wrangle, pre∣tending that by dedu∣ctions and inferences they prooue their do∣ctrine being destitute of formall Scripture, wherof ignorāt people cānot iudge. For what know they when de∣ductions are good? But when they were vrged by Tradition to shew the Pedegree of their Professours, they were as dumbe as ours now are, that the Fathers said vnto them, Confin∣gant tale aliquod, let thē if they can feigne and deuise a pedegree of professours agreeing in the same forme of Faith wherof the first was an Apostle, and the last a Protestant?