An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.

§. 2. About the Question and meaning of it.

The Question propounded to be treated in the Conference vpon the occasion, and for the end afore∣sayd, was▪

Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all Ages, especially in the Ages before Luther: and whether the Names of such visible Protestants may be shewed in all Ages, out of good Authors?

The reason why this question was proposed rather then any other, was▪ for that the old Gentleman was already perswaded that there must be in all Ages a vi∣sible Church of Christ, hauing in it visible Pastors & Doctors, and lawfully sent Preachers who are by Al∣mighty God appointed and authorized to teach, and of whom all sorts of people are commaunded & war∣ranted to learne infallible Fayth necessary to saluatiō. And further, that this Church, and these her Pastors & Preachers, haue byn in all Ages past, not only visible, but so visible as the Names at least of some Pastours teaching, and some people learning the true Fayth in all Ages, might be produced out of good Authors. And therfore, as he had heard, the Roman Catholiks made no difficulty to produce out of good Authors the Na∣mes of their Pastors & people in all Ages: so he much desired to heare, whether the Names of Protestant Pa∣stors and Preachers in all Ages could not also be pro∣duced out of good Authors: for if they could, he meant to remaine a Protestant as he had been all his life time▪ but if they could not, he thought it necessary to leaue the Protestants, and to adhere to the Roman Church, to learne of it Faith necessary to saluation.

By this appeareth that the sense and meaning of the Question could be no other then that which M Fisher explicated in the Conference: viz. Whether the Prote∣stant Church was in all Ages so visible, especially in the Ages be∣fore Luther, as the Names of Protestant Pastors and Preachers in all Ages may be shewed out of good Authors. And further that in case the Protestant Disputant should vndertake (as he did tooto boldly vndertake) the affirmatiue part, saying, and offering to proue in generall, that the Names of such Pastors and Preachers of Protestāt Religion may be shewed in all Ages out of good Au∣thors; it should further be required (as M. Fisher requi∣red of him) that he should actually name in particular in euery seuerall Age such Pastors and Preachers as he thought he could proue and defend to be Protestants. For if the Question had not been thus vnderstood, it should not haue been answerable to the occasion and end aboue sayd. Neyther could the Protestant Dispu∣tant sufficiently satisfie the doubt of the old Gentlemā, being chiefly caused in that he had heard, that no Protestant could name Pastors and Preachers of his profession in all Ages out of good Authors; So as (to satisfy this doubt) it was not sufficient only to say, nor only in generall to proue by such Syllogismes as D. Featly made, (which were such as the old Gentleman (I dare say) did not vnderstand) that the Names of Pro∣testants in all Ages may be shewed, but as M. Fisher had shewed him a printed booke, in which Roman Ca∣tholike Pastours and people were in particuler named in all Ages: so he expected Protestant Pastours, and people of all Ages to be named in particuler, and after proued and defended to be Protestants, as M. Fisher was ready to proue and defend whom he would in particuler name, to be Roman Catholikes.

Furthermore although it may seeme to some not much materiall, whether the Protestant Disputant hath begun to name first those of the first Age, & next of the second, and so downward vntill Luther, or cō∣trary wise to beginne with Luther and so vpward till the Apostles and Christ; yet both the words of the Question, & the doubt of the old Gentleman had byn far better satisfied, and the Tergiuersation which D. Featly vsed in the first age auoyded, if M. Fisher had vr∣ged him, as he might▪ first to beginne with the Age immediatly before Luther (a confessed Protestant) and so go vpward vntill Christ, the confessed Fountayne of infallible perpetuall vnchanged Truth: for then it would haue been cleerly seene, euen by the Confessiō of learned Protestants, particularly Luther himselfe and others; that those who eyther are named, or can yet be named by D. Featly, after he hath sought (as I am told he went to seeke) Records in the great Library in Oxford, were not visible Protestants, but of a different Profession, Fayth, and Religion, and so different, as that they cannot be iustly deemed members of one and the same Protestant Church with Luther, after his Apo∣stacy from his Religious Order, and reuolt from the Roman Catholike Fayth. For proofe wherof, I for breuityes sake do refer euery one who desireth full sa∣tisfaction in this point, to what is largely related and proued in the Protestants Apology, in diuers places, but particularly tract. 2. cap. 2. sect. 11. subdiuision 3. And will only content my selfe to cyte these few testimo∣nyes for their sakes, who haue not commodity to see that booke.

First therefore 1 1.1 Luther himselfe sayth: We dare boast that Christ was first published by vs. Wherefore the Latheran 2 1.2 Conradus Schushelburg sayth: It is impuden∣cy

to say that many learned men in Germany (and the like is of other Countreys) before Luther did hould the doctrine of the Lutheran Ghospell. And another 3 1.3 of them not only sayth in effect thus much, but proueth it by this argu∣ment: If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Lu∣ther in his office, there had beene no need of a Lutheran refor∣mation. Another sayth: It 4 1.4 is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine, and that Luther should receaue it from them, & not they from Luther: considering (sayth he) it is manifest to the whole world, that before Luthers tyme, all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darkenes, and that Luther was diui∣nely raysed vp to discouer the same, & to restore the light of true doctrine. And least this may be thought to haue beene only the conceipt of Luther and Lutherans (who yet could better tell then D. Featly, D. White, and such o∣ther new Maisters) I will add heereunto what is sayd, first by 5 1.5 Caluin, who doth acknowledge, That in this Lutheran reformation, there was made a discession or departure from all the world. Secondly by 6 1.6 Bucer, who calleth Luther, the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine. Thirdly, by Beza 7 1.7 a principall Caluinist, who teacheth that at this tyme, ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant, and consequently teacheth, that ther was at that tyme no visible Church; and so if any Church at all, it was only inuisible, as is affirmed euē by our owne English Protestant Deuines, namely M. 8 1.8 Iewel, who sayth, The truth was vnknown and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Vldericke Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Ghospel. And M. Perkins 9 1.9 who sayth: We say, that before the dayes of Luther, for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostacy ouerspread the whole face of the earth, and that our (Protestant) Church was not visible to the World.

I might adde many more† 1.10 testimonyes of o∣thers, who eyther in expresse tearmes, or in effect af∣firme the Protestant Church to haue beene in many Ages before Luther latent, and altogeather inuisible: which indeed was the common opinion of Protestāts at their first vprysing; who on the one side thought they could with shiftes, bettter answere places of scrip∣ture, which made often and honourable mention of the Church, then they could answere the euidence of Histories, and of their owne experience shewing that no visible Protestants were extant before themselues: But now of late, diuers plaine places of Scripture and Fathers hauing beene produced, and such euident rea∣sons deduced out of them, prouing ineuitably that the true Church of Christ, of which all sorts must learne infallible sayth necessary to saluation, must needes be visible in all Ages, as, to omitt others, are these: My spirit which is in thee, and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of* 1.11 thy seede, nor out of the mouth of thy seedes seede from hence∣forth for euer. Againe: Their seed shall be knowne in Nati∣ons,* 1.12 and their branches among people: all that see them, shall know them, that these are the seed which our Lord hath blessed. Againe: Thy gates shalbe opened continually day and night,* 1.13 they shall not be shut, that the strength of the Nations and their kinges may enter into thee: for the nation and kingdome which* 1.14 shall not serue thee, shall perish. You are the light of the world: a Citty built vpon a hill cannot be hid. Tell the Church &c. He that will not heare the Church, let him be vnto thee as an* 1.15 heathen and Publican Going, teach all Nations, baptizing them &c. Behould I am with you (to wit, your selues, and suc∣cessors teaching and baptizing) all dayes vntill the end of the world. Conformable to which Scriptures, are also innumerable plaine places of ancient Fathers, which

may bee seene in Coccius: and among others S. Augu∣stine* 1.16 who saith: that the Church being built vppon a moū∣tayne cannot be hid.

Out of these, and other plaine places of of Scriptures & Fathers, euident Reasons also may be* 1.17 deduced, shewing that the Church must needs bee visible in all ages. As for example, that otherwise it cannot bee such a Church as Christ did institute: nor could it performe those offices which Christ appointed it to performe: nor could those which were in it be instructed by it: nor those which were out of it be cō∣uerted to it: nor Heretiques (pretending to be the Church) cōvinced not to be it. Wherfore out later Pro testants being not able to sayle any longer against this ineuitable Scylla, without apparent daunger to split their boate, would needes (rather then turne back to the safe hauen of the visible Catholique Ro∣man Church) aduenture vpon the Charybdis of con∣temning all Monuments of ancient histories, and the plaine experience of their primitiue Protestant Patri∣arches, hoping to escape by landing vpon the imagi∣nary Iland of inuisible recordes, supposed to haue byn written, and after suppressed in the pretended Popes persecution of the visible Members of their inuisible Church, in the Ages before Luther, (a shift very vnsafe and such, as if it were good, might serue any other Sect of ancient, or present Heretiques, (as well as our moderne Protestants) if they would pretend to haue had a continuall visible Church of their profession.) But alas, who seeth not that these be meere imagina∣ry Chymaera's, or dreames? For if any such people had beene (practizing especially rites of their religion, though neuer so secretly) they could not euen with a Giges ring haue passed vnseene, but eyther with their

positiue profession of their owne doctrine, which in some cases obligeth all true beleeuers, or at least with negatiue profession of fayth, by which all faythfull men, and at all tymes are obliged neuer to make shew and profession of a contrary religion; they, or some of them could not choose but to haue beene noted. And if for that cause any persecution were in that age, as is supposed, infallibly they would haue beene taken (as others of other Religions, in like cases ordinarily are taken) and imprisoned, or otherwise so punished, as the world could not haue beene ignorant of their persons, nor Historyes set out by friendes or enemies silent, in setting downe (as vsually is done) their names, conditions, opinions, punishments, and per∣secutions, in such tyme, such place &c. And if such re∣cordes of such conspicuous things had been set down in historyes, it is not possible that the memory of such notorious matters could be razed both out of bookes, and out of the mindes of men, who without booke do continually deliuer in words to their successors what they saw with their eyes, or heard with their eares of their predecessors, or read in books to haue byn don to such persons as professed such a Religion, or to haue beene done to such bookes, in which mention was made of such persecution, made against professors of that Religion.

To say therefore that such persons were, and yet no record in any booke or other memory of them, or that once such Recordes were, but after were by the Pope razed, or burned, and yet no mention made in any booke, or other monument that such razing or burning of bookes was by such a Pope, at such a tyme &c. (as we can yet out of good Recordes tell the bookes burned by Dioclesian the Grande Persecutor

of Christians:) To say (I say) this, is senselesse, and plainely sheweth, that these men who sought to a∣uoyd the Scylla of an inuisible Church, by this shift fal into the Charybdis of speaking against sense and expe∣rience, and indeed runne backe vpon the Scylla of the same inuisible Church; for auoyding whereof they deuised this sandy shift of inuisible Persecutours, in∣uisible Persecutions, inuisible Recordes of nameles (supposed to be visibly persecuted) members of the Protestant Church in all Ages before Luther. O mise∣ry! O madnes of our poore deceaued Protestants! What? Is it possible, that Luther and Lutherans, Caluin and Caluinists, yea our owne Countrey-men prime Protestants, conuinced with the cleere euidency of things in their own dayes, and with plaine Recordes of all ancient Monuments for former ages, doe con∣fesse (as you heare euen now) that Luther was the first that announced, or published Christ; that he was the first Apostle of the Reformed doctrine; and this so certainely, that they do account it impudency and ri∣diculous to say, That there were other visible Prote∣stants in Germany before Luther; that they proue by ar∣gument this to be impossible; that they acknowledge themselues in this Lutheran Reformation to haue de∣parted from all the world; that at Luthers and Caluins comming no ordinary vocatiō of Church-men (with∣out which the visible Church cannot be) was extant in any place; that the Church both then, and for ma∣ny hundred yeares before was wholly latent and in∣uisible? Is it possible, I say, that all this should be cō∣fessed by the primitiue Parents, and prime Doctours of Protestancy, and that now their professed children & schollers, and in respect of them, Punyes in Prote∣stant diuinity, dare be so bold (as D. Featly was in

the late conference) to controlle and contradict those his grand Maisters, in not only affirming, but offe∣ring to proue by a Syllogisme, and by a Demonstration à priori, that the Protestant Church hath beene in all Ages visible; and (O wonder!) so visible, as the na∣mes of the particular men may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors: and further offering to second this Syllogisme, by a full Induction, in which he vnder∣tooke actually to set downe their particuler names in euery seuerall age? Surely the aforesayd Protestants, if they had beene present, would haue wondered to see such boldnes, and would haue censured this attēpt to be ridiculous impudency.

By this may appeare how notoriously the old Gentleman, and the rest of the Protestant Audience were abused by D. Featly, vndertaking so boldly to proue both by syllogisme and Induction, the affirmatiue part of the aforesayd question, which was proposed to be treated in the conference, the Negatiue whereof is so plainely confessed by so many Prime Protestants, as now we haue heard.

Notes

• 1 1.1

  Luth. ep. ad Argentin. anno 1525.
• 2 1.2

  Conradus Schushelb. in Theol. Calu. lib. 2. fol. 130. B. versus finé.
• 3 1.3

  Geo. Mylli. in Augustanae Confessionis explie. art. 7. de Eccl. pag. 137.
• 4 1.4

  Benedict Morgést. trac. de Eccl, pag. 145.
• 5 1.5

  Calu. in I. epist. ep. 141.
• 6 1.6

  Bucer. ep. ad Epis. Here∣ford.
• 7 1.7

  Beza in Theol. ep. epi. 5.
• 8 1.8

  Iewell in his Apolog. of the Church. 4 c. diuis. 2. & in his defence 42.
• 9 1.9

  Perkins in exposit. of the Creed.
• † 1.10

  See the booke intitu∣led: The Au∣thor and sub∣stance of Pro∣testant religiō
• * 1.11

  Isa. 59. v. 21.
• * 1.12

  Isa. 61, 9,
• * 1.13

  Isa. 60, 11,
• * 1.14

  Matth. 5, 14,
• * 1.15

  Matth. 18, 17, Matth. 28, 19, 20
• * 1.16

  Coccius in thesauro Cō∣trouersiarum, tomo 1. lib. 8. art. 1.
• * 1.17

  Aug. in psal. 47. lib. de vnit, Eccles. cap. 16. & 25.