Seven dialogues both pithie and profitable The 1 is of the right vse of things indifferent. 2 sheweth what comfort poperie affordeth in time of daunger. 3 is betweene a good woman and a shrew. 4 is of the conversion of a harlot. 5 is of putting forth children to nurse. 6 is of a popish pilgrimage. 7 is of a popish funerall. By W.B.

❧ A dialogue of Fish-eating, both pleasant and profitable, wherein are many excellent poyntes of Divinitie discussed, but chiefly that of the right vse of thyngs indifferent, very necessary for these times.

The Speakers are onely two.

• 1 Lanio, that is, a Butcher.
• 2 Salsamentarius, that is, a Fishmonger.

Butcher.

HOw now lusty Fishmonger? haue you yet bought you a rope?

Fishmonger

A rope Butcher, what to doe?

Bu.

What to do? to go hang thy selfe.

Fish.

Why man, I am not yet weary of my life.

But.

But you will be ere it be long.

Fish.

Why Butcher, what is the matter?

But.

If you knowe not, I wil tell you. There is com∣ming towards you, a very Saguntine famine (as they cal it) that will make you euen goe hang your selues.

Fish.

Good wordes Butcher, let this come to our enne∣mies: how commeth it about, that of a Butcher you are so sodainely become a diuiner of such great calamitie?

But.

It is no diuination, doe not flatter your selfe, the

matter is euident, and the thing it selfe is already in the open market place.

Fish.

You trouble my minde much, fhew it mée if you haue any thing.

But.

I will shew it you to your great griefe: There is of late come forth an edict from Rome, that from henceforth it shal be lawful for euery man to eate what he list. And wat then remayneth to you and your order, but an insati∣able hunger with your rotten salt fish?

Fish.

For my part, I care not if any man do list to eate snailes or netles, let him: but is any man forbidden to eate fish?

But.

No, but there is libertie graunted to all men, to eate flesh that will.

Fish.

If this be all, then goe thou and hang thy selfe: for I hope to gayne more héereafter than euer I haue done.

But.

Yea, great comming in, but hunger to the full: or if you had rather heare more merry newes, henceforth you shall liue more cleanely, neither shall you vse to wipe your snotty nose, which is euer itching with scabbes vpon your arme, as you were wont to doe.

Fish.

Ha, ha: now we be come to the toppe: the blinde reproacheth the one-eyed, I would it were true that you tell me, but I am afraide you doe but féede me with a false ioy.

But.

That which I tel you is too true, but whereupon do you promise to your selfe greater gaine?

Fish.

Because that the world is come to that passe, that looke what is most forbidden, that men do most of all de∣sire.

But.

And what of that?

Fish.

Because more will abstaine from eating of flesh, when there is libertie giu•…•…n to eate it, neither will it be counted a daintie banquet indeede, where there is no fish, as the manner hath béene amongst our forefathers: there∣fore I am glad that the eating of flesh is permitted, and I would also that the eating of fish were forbidden, for then

•…•…ould men more gladly buy it then now they do.

But.

Surely a goodly wi•…•….

Fish.

This I could wish, if I respected nothing but the gaine of money, as you do, for the loue whereof you haue deuoted your grosse flesh deuouring bodie to the infernall spirites.

But.

You should séeme to be all salt, by your vnsauorie spéech.

Fish.

What hath mooued the Romaines to release men from that lawe which res•…•…rained flesh eating, and hath bin obserued so many ages?

Butcher

They thinke (as the truth is indéede) that by Fishmongers the cittie is polluted, the earth, the ayre, the waters, and the fire are infected, and the bodies of men are* 1.1 corrupted, for by eating of fish the body is filled with rot∣ten humors, and from hence procéede feuers, consumpti∣ons, gowtes, the falling sickenesse, leaprousies, and what not?

Fish.

Tell me then (maister Hippocrates) why in good gouerned Citties it is forbidden to kill bulles and swine within the walles? And it were more for the health of the Cittizens, if there might be no cattell killed within the walles. Why haue Butchers a certayne place allotted them to dwell in, for feare that if they should dwell euery where, they would soone infect the whole Citty with the plague? Is there any kinde of stinch more pestilent than the corrupted blood and dregges of beasts and other liuing things?

But.

These things be very swéete spices, if they be com∣pared with the rotten sauor of fish.

Fish.

To you I thinke they be méere spices, but not to the Magistrates which haue remooued you from the Cit∣tie. And howe swéetely your slaughter houses doe smell, let them declare that passe by them, holding their noses: yea aske the common people, who had rather haue tenne bawdes dwell by them then one Butcher.

But.

But neither pondes nor whole riuers will suffice

to wash your rotten salt fish: and it is truely said, that you spend water in vaine, for a fish alwayes smelleth like fish, though you should besméere it with swéet oyntments. And no maruel though they smel so when they are dead, for the most of them do smel so soone as they are taken. Flesh bée∣ing powdred in brine may be kept very swéet many yéeres together, and common salt wil preserue it from smelling: being dried in the smoake and the wind, it gathereth no ill sauour. If you should do al this vnto fish, yet it would sa∣uour stil like fish. By this alone you may coniecture, that there is no rotten sauor to be compared vnto that fish ma∣keth. And fish corrupteth and putrifieth the very salt it selfe, whose nature is to preserue things from putrefaction, whi∣lest by his natural force it both shutteth and bindeth, and also excludeth and kéepeth out whatsoeuer might hurt out∣wardly, and drieth vp inwardly whatsoeuer might putrify the humors. In fishes onely salt is not salt. Some dainty or delicate person perhaps doth hold their nose when they goe by our sla•…•…ghter houses, but no man can abide in the boate where your salt fish lieth. If vpon the way any tra∣uelers chaunce to méete your cartes loaden with your salt fish, what running is there til they be past it? What hold∣ing of noses, spitting, and coughing? And, if it were possi∣ble, that pure salt fish could be brought into the citie, as we doe the flesh of beasts that we kil, yet the Lawe would not sléepe: but no•…•… what shal be done to those that ore rotten before they be sp•…•…nt? And yet how often doe wée sée your damned marchandise taken by the Clarke of the Market, and cast into the riuer, and your 〈◊〉〈◊〉 fined for bringing such stuffe to the Market? And this should be done oftner than it is, but that they (being corrupted by your bribes) doe more respect their owne priuate gaine, than the good of the common•…•… wealth.

Fish.

Although no man did euer knowe of any Butcher fined for selling of meazled porke, or r•…•…tten shéep that haue died in a ditch, & shoulders of mutton eaten with worms, yet by washing of them, and be•…•…mearing them ouer with

fresh blood, the matter hath béene couered.

But.

You cannot •…•…hew such a president amongest all of vs, as we can shew amongst you, as of an éele sodden with a cru•…•… of bread, there died nine citizens, a horrible thing: with such dainties doe you furnish mens tables.

Fish.

You tell of a case that nò man could auoyd, if God would haue it so: but with you it is an ordinary thing, to sel cattes for conies, and dogges for hares. I say nothing of pasties made of mans flesh.

But.

What doe you know by me? you vpbraide mée by mens abuses, let them answer these matters that commit them, I do but compare trade with trade, and gaine with gaine: so you may also condemne Gardiners, for that a∣gainst their willes they may sometimes sell hemlockes or woolfes bane for colewortes: so may you also condempne Apothecaries, for that sometime vnawares they giue poi∣sons insteade of medicines. There is no trade •…•…o frée from offence, but such mischances may now and then happen: but you Fishmongers, when yée haue done what you can, yet is it poyson that you sell, if you should sel a crampefish, or a water snake, or a hare of the sea, caught and mingled together with other fish in your nettes, it were a chaunce, and no crime, neither were you any more to be blamed for it than a Physition, who oftentimes killeth that sicke body which he intendeth to cure. This might be borne withall, if only in winter time you did thrust out your filthiness•…•…s, the rigor of the season might mitigate the plague: but now in the heate of summer you cast out your rotten garbage, and the Autumne, which is daungerous of it selfe, is by your meanes made more dangerous. And when the yéere doth renew it selfe▪ and hidden humours doe againe shew themselues, not without great danger to the bodie▪ then do you for two whole moneths together play the tyrants, cor∣rupting the infancie of the spring with vntimely age. And when this should be holpen by nature, that bodies, •…•…éeing purged from bad humors, might be renewed with new moisture, you fill them with méere rottennesse, and stinc∣king

corruption: and if there be any corruption in the bo∣dy, by your meanes it is increased: and if there be any good humors, they are also corrupted. And this also might bée •…•…orne withall, if you did corrupt mens bodies onely: but now, because by the difference of meates, the organical in∣struments of the minde be corrupted, it commeth to passe, that the mindes of men are also infected: for the most part, you shal sée these same great fish eaters, such as the fishes themselues are, that is, they looke pale, they smell, they are blockish and mute.

Fish.

Oh sir, you are another Thales, one of the seauen wise men of Greece. How then I pray you doe they looke and smel which liue vpon béetes? doe they looke like béets? do they sauor of them? how do they look and sauor that eate of oxen, shéep, & goats? For sooth like oxen, shéep and goats, do they not? you Butchers sel kids flesh for daintie meate, and yet as it is subiect to the •…•…alling sickenesse it selfe, so it bréedeth the same disease in those that loue flesh, were it not better to please the hungry stomacke with salt fish?

But.

As though this were the onely lie, that the natu∣rall Philosophers haue written, but admit that they be all true which they write, yet to bodies that are subiect to dis∣eases, oftentimes those things that be of themselues excee∣ding good, prooue very bad: We sell kiddes flesh vnto those that are troubled with feuers, & consumption of the lungs, but not to giddy braines.

Fish.

If fish-eating be so hurtful as you would make it, why doe the magistrates allow vs to sell our wares all the yéere, and restraine you from selling of your commodities a good parte of the yéere.

But.

Whats that to me? peraduenture that is procu∣red* 1.2 by bad Physitians, to the end their gaines might be the more.

Fi.

What doe you tell me of bad physitians? why man, none are more enemies to fish than they be.

But.

O deceiue not your selfe, they doe not that for any loue that they beare you, or to the fishes, when they can ab∣staine

from them, none more religiously, they know what they doe well euough: they doe therein prouide for them∣selues, and their owne health. That which makes many to cough, to languish, to be sicke, is good prouision for them, and they like it well.

Fish.

I wil not speake for Phisitions, let them reu•…•…nge themselues vpon thée, (as I doubt not but they will) if e∣uer thou fallest into their nets. It sufficeth me that I haue to defend my cause, the good life of our forefa•…•…hers, the au∣thoritie of the most approoued Writers, the approbation of the reuerend Bishops, and the generall custome of christi∣an countries, whome if you will condemne all of madnes, you may: but I had rather be madde with them, than so∣•…•…er with Butchers.

But.

You wil not patronize the Physitian, neyther will I be a censurer of ou•…•… forefathers, or the common cu∣stome, I was alwayes woont to reuerence them, but not to inueigh against them.

Fishm.

In this respect you are more wary than godlie, vnlesse I be deceiued in you.

Bu.

In my opinion, it is good for men to beware how* 1.3 they haue to do wi•…•…h such as haue auctority in their hands: but I will tell you what I thinke, according to that which I read in my Bible, that is, of the vulgar translation.

Fish.

That so of a Butcher you may become a Diuine.

But.

I thinke that the first men, so soone as they were created of the moist clay, had very healthful bodies, which appéereth by their long liuing. And further, that paradise stoode in a most commodious and healthful ayre. And I do thinke that such bodies in such places, yéelding on euery side a sweete ayre, by reason of the swéete hearbs, trées and flowers that there did growe, might liue long without a∣ny meate, and the rather, I thinke so, because the earth a∣bundātly powred forth euery thing of it own accord, with∣out the labor of man: for the dressing of such a garden was rather to be counted a pleasure than a labour.

Fish.

As yet that which you say is likely, but go on.

But:

Of that great variety of things which came of s•…•… •…•…ertile a ground, there was nothing forbidden, but onely one trée.

Fish:

Most true.

But:

And that for no other cause, but that by their obe∣dione•…•… they might acknowledge their Lord and Maker. And this I thinke, that the earth when it was young, did bring forth all things more happily, and of better iuyce, then if doth now, being old and almost barren, but especi∣ally in Paradise.

Fish:

Not vnlike: what then?

But:

Therefore to eate there was of pleasure, not of ne∣cessity.

Fish:

I haue heard so.

But:

And to abstaine from tearing, or butchering, li∣uing creatures, was then a point of humanitie, not o•…•… san∣ctitie.

Fish:

I know not that. I reade, that after the floud, to •…•…éede vpon liuing creatures, was permitted: I do not reade that it was forbidden before. But why should there bee now a permission granted to eate of them, if it were per∣mitted before?

But:

Why doe we not féede vpon frogges, as well as vpon other liuing creatures? Not because they are forbid∣den, but because we abhorre them. And it may be, that God in that place, doth but adm•…•…nish men what meates are fittest for humane •…•…rugality, and not what he would permit to be eaten.

F•…•…sh:

I am no Sooth•…•…sayer.

But:

But we reade, that so soone as man was created, it was said vnto them; beare rule ouer the fishes of the sea, and the fowles of the aire, and all liuing things that moue vpon the earth. What vse is there of this dominion, if it be net lawfull to eate of them?

Fish:

O cruell Maister, do•…•…st thou so debarre thy men and thy maides, thy wife and thy children? but by the same reason thou maiest goe eate thy chamber pot too, for

thou bearest rule ouer it.

But:

But heare againe you prowd Fish monger, of o∣ther things there is an vse, and the name of rule is not in vaine: The horse doth beare me on his backe, the cammell carrieth packes, but of fishes what other vse can there be, but to féede vpon them?

Fish:

As if forsooth, there were not a number of medi∣cines made of fishes. Againe, there be many things that be made onely for the delight of man, who also in the be∣holding of them, may be drawne thereby to an admiration of the Creator. Peraduenture you will not beléeue that Dolphines doe carry men vpon their backes. But to con∣clude, there be fishes which doe fore-shew a tempe•…•…t to be at hand, as the Hedge. hog of the sea: doe you not want such a seruant at home sometime?

But:

Well, grant that before the floud, it was not per∣mitted to eate of any thing but of the fruites of the earth, yet it was no great matter to abstaine from those things which bodily necessity required not, and in killing where∣of, was a shew of cruelty. This you will grant me, that the féeding vpon lining creatures, was permitted from the beginning, for the imbecility of mans nature. The fl•…•…ud brought cold with it: and we sée at this day, that in colde Countries men are more ginen to eate then in hote: and the ouer-flowing of waters, did either extinguish, or much corrupt the fruite of the earth.

Fish:

Be it so: What then?

But:

And yet aft•…•…r the floud men liued aboue two hun∣dred yeares.

Fish:

So I beléeue.

But:

Why then did almighty God permit those that were so strong without comparison to eate of all things, and afterward re•…•…rained those that were of a farre weaker constitution and shorter time, to certaine kinds of meates,* 1.4 as he gaue in charge by Moses.

Fish:

As if it were for me to gi•…•…e a reason of Gods do∣ings. But I thinke the Lord did then as Maisters vse to

doe, who abridge their seruants of their libertie, which be∣fore they allowed them, when they sée that they abuse their Maisters lenity and kindenesse. So we take from a horse that is too lusty and vnruly, his beanes and •…•…ates, and giue him but a little hay, and then ride him with a sharper bit and sharper spurres. Mankinde had shaken off all feare and reu•…•…rence of God, and was growne into such a kinde of licentiousnesse, as if there had béen no God at all. Héere∣upon were ordained lawes, as barres and ceremonies, as railes, precepts, and threatnings, as bridles, that so men might repent.

But:

Why then doe not those barres and bridles re∣maine vnto this day?

Fish:

Because the rigor of that carnall seruitude was taken away, after that by the Gospel we were adopted to* 1.5 be the sonnes of God, when the grace of God did more a∣bound, those preceps were abrogated.

But:

Gods law is perpetuall. And Christ saith; he came* 1.6 not to breake the Law, but to fulfill the Law. How then durst they that came after, to abrogate a good part of the Law?

Fish:

That Law was not giuen to the Gentiles: and* 1.7 therefore it séemed good vnto the Apostles, not to burthen them with circumcision, (which theIewes obserue vnto this day) lest they should (as the Iewes also doe) place the hope of saluation in bodily obseruations, rather then in faith and loue towards God.

But:

I omit the Gentiles. By what scripture prooue you that the Iewes (if they would imbrace the profession of the Gospel) should bee frée from the bondage of Mo∣ses Law?

Fish:

Because the Prophets did fore-tell, that God would make a new couenant with them, and giue them a new heart, and they bring in the Lord, abhorring the festi∣uall daies of the Iewes, refusing their sacrifices, detesting their fasts, reiecting their offerings, and desiring a people of a circumcised heart. The Lord himselfe confirmed their

prophecies, who giuing his body and his blood vnto his* 1.8 Disciples, calleth it a new Testament. Now if nothing were abolished of the old, why is this called a new▪ The choice of meates is abrogated, both by Christs example, as also by his word, who saith; That man is not defiled with that which goeth into the belly, & is cast out in the draught. The same was shewed to Peter in a vision; yea, and Peter himselfe with Paul and the rest, eateth common meates forbidden by the Law. This matter is handled by Paul in all his Epistles, and without doubt, the Christian people to this day doe follow the same rule, as deliuered them from the hands of the Apostles. Therefore the Iewes are not onely fréed from the superstitious obseruation of the Law, as it were from milke, or food that they were famili∣arly vsed vnto, but now they are driuen from it as a thing out of season. Neither is the Law abrogated, but onely some part of it is commanded to cease, which now would be idle, or in vaine, which may be illustrated by some fami∣liar* 1.9 similitudes in the course of Nature.

Gréene leaues and blossomes doe promise fruit to spring* 1.10 after them. Now when the trée is loaden with fruit, no man desires the blossomes: neither is any man gréeued* 1.11 for the losse of his sonnes childhoode, when his sonne is growne to mans estate. No man careth for candles and* 1.12 torches when the Sunne is risen. The tutor hath no cause* 1.13 to complaine, if his scholler (being of a ripe age) doth chal∣le•…•…ge his liberty, and hath his tutor vnder his owne pow∣er* 1.14 or command. A pledge is no longer a pledge, when the things promised are exhibited. The Bride, before she be* 1.15 brought to the Bride-groome, doth comfort herselfe with letters, which he sent vnto her, she kisseth the gifts that come from him, and imbraceth his picture; but when shée inioyeth the Bride-groome himselfe, then she neglecteth those things which shee loued before. But the Iewes at the first, are hardly drawne from their old customes; as a childe is hardly weaned from the breast. Therefore they are almost by force driuen from those figures, or shadowes,

or temporary comforts, that they might wholly i•…•…brace him whome that ceremoniall lawe did promise and sha∣dow.

But:

Who would euer haue expected so much diuinity to come from a Fish monger? Truely you are worthy to sell salt-fish no longer, but fresh fish. But tell me one thing, if you were a Iew, as I am not sure whether you be or no, and were in danger of death, by reason of extreame famine, woulde you die rather then you would eate any swines flesh?

Fish.

What I would do, I know: but what I should do* 1.16 I know not.

But.

God hath forbidden both, he hath said, Thou shalte doe no murther, and he hath saide, Eate no swine flesh. In such a case, which commandement should giue place to o∣ther?

Fish.

First, it is not e•…•…ident, whether God forbade the eat∣ing of swines flesh with this mind, that men should rather die than preserue life by eating of it. For the Lord h•…•…mselfe excuseth Dauid, that contrary to the lawe did eate the shew bread: and when the Iewes were exiles in Babylon, they o∣mi•…•…ted many things which the law prescribed. Therefore I should iudge the law of nature, which is perpetuall and inuiolable, to be preferred be•…•…ore that which neither was euer, and was af er to be abrogated.

But.

Why then are the brethren of the Macha•…•…ees com∣mended,* 1.17 for choosing to die, rather a most cruell death, than once to taste of Swines flesh?

Fish.

I thinke it was, because that eating so commann∣ded by that heathen king, did comprehend vnder it a re∣nouncing of the whole law of thei•…•… country, euen as circū∣cision, which the Iewes would enforce vpon the Gentiles, contained the profession of their whole religion, no other∣wise then an ear•…•…est which serueth to bind men to the per∣formance of the whole bargaine.

But.

I•…•… then the grosser part of the law were rightly taken away, when the light of the Gospel arose, what is

•…•…he reason that the same, or more grieuous then they, are now commaunded againe; and especially •…•…eing as the Lord doth call his yoke an easie yoke. And Peter in the Acts of the Apostles doth call the lawe of the Iewes a hard law, which neither they nor their fathers were able for to beare? Circumcision is taken away, but baptisme is com in steade thereof, I had almost saide, of a harder condition. Then the Infants were deferred vnto the eight day, and if the childe chaunced to die in the meane time, the parents desire of circumcision was imputed vnto them for circum∣cision. We bring little children immediately from the mo∣thers wombe, and dippe them ouer head and eares in cold water, which hath stoode perhappes long a putrifying in a stone font. An•…•… if it chaunce to die the first day, or to mis∣carry euen in th•…•… •…•…irth, through no default of the friendes, or parents, they say in Popery that the poore miserable in∣fant is damned in hell for euer.

Fish.

So they say indéede, but I sée no reason for it, for* 1.18 not the want of the sacrament, but the contempt and neg∣lect of the sacrament is dangerous, but especially to the pa∣rents: but other wise, if children die before they can be law∣fully baptized, we must beléeue that they are saued by gods election, and by vertue of the couenaunt which God hath made to the faithfull, and to their séede, of which couenant baptisme is but a seale and a pledge, to confirme our faith that doe beléeue, and the childes faith when it commeth to yéeres of discretion: but Gods grace is not tied to his seales or pledges. We are pestered with moe fasting dayes, and festiuall dayes than the Iewes were. They were more free from their meates than we be, for they might all the yéere long eate muttons, capons, partridges, kiddes, &c. so may not we. There was no kinde of garment forbidden them •…•…ut linsey woolsey: but nowe we must be prescribed what appa•…•…rell to weare, of what fashion, and colour, and 〈◊〉〈◊〉 must weare •…•…ilke, and who not: and many things moe I could 〈◊〉〈◊〉, which makes me thinke that the state of the Iewe•…•… 〈◊〉〈◊〉 sa•…•…re better than ours.

You erre all the way Butcher, you erre: Christs yoke is not such a thing as you imagine it to be. A christian is ti∣ed* 1.19 to more things for quantitie, and more hard for quality than the Iewes: yea and to a sorer punish ment, if hée neg∣lect them or contem•…•…e them, but a greater force of faith and loue being ioyned vnto them, dooth make those things swéete and easie, which are by nature most hard and grée∣u•…•…us.

But.

But when the Spirite was giuen in the likenesse of sierie tongues, it replenished the heartes of the faithfull with a most plentifull gift of •…•…aith and loue: why was the burden of the Law then withdrawn as it were from weak ones, that were ready to sincke as it were vnder a most cruell burden? Why dooth Peter (being now indued with the holy Ghost) call it an intolerable burthen?

Fish.

It was abrogated in parte, and that for two cau∣ses.

First, lest Iudaisme shoulde (as it did beginne) ouer∣whelme the glory of the Gospel.

Secondly, lest through the rigour of the ceremoniall Lawe, the Gentiles should be kept backe from Christ, a∣mong whom were many weake ones, who were in daun∣ger of a double inconuenience, if some part of the Law had not béene taken away.

First, they might else haue beléeued that no man could be saued without the obseruation of the lawe.

Secondly, they might otherwise perhappes choose ra∣ther to remayne still in their Paganisme, than to vndergo the yoke of Moses lawe.

Therefore it was méete to allure and catch those weake ones, with a certaine baite of libertie.

Againe, part of the ceremoniall law was then abrog•…•…∣ted, or changed to some other thing, in regard of th•…•… who slatly denyed all, or any hope of saluation to be in the pro∣fession of the Gospel, without the obseruation of the 〈◊〉〈◊〉, circumcision, sabba•…•…ths, choice of meates, and many such things. And further, that spéech of the holy Apostle saint

Peter, where he saith, the Lawe is an intollerable burden, is not to be referred vnto that person which hée then sus∣tayned (for to him nothing was intollerable) but to those grosse and weake Iewes, which not without great yrke∣somenesse did bite vpon the shell, hauing not as yet tasted the swéete ker•…•…ell of the spirite.

But.

Your reasoning is grosse enough, or (if you will)* 1.20 substantiall enough: but mée thinkes there are causes e∣now why their carnall obseruations should be now taken away, or at leastwise be left arbitrary to euery mans cons∣cience and discretion.

Fish.

Why so?

But.

Oflate I sawe the whole worlde pictured vpon a linnen cloth, but very large, there I sawe how small that part is which doth purely and sincerely professe Christian religion, namely one corner of Europe reaching westward, and parte of it towardes the north, and a third parte tend∣ing (but afarre off) toward the south, and the fourth reach∣ing to the eastward séemed to be Polonia. All the worlde be∣sides containeth either Barbarians, not much differing from bruite beasts, or Schismatiques, or Heretiques, or all.

Fish.

But you sawe not all that part which lieth south∣ward, and the dispersed Ilands, noted for woorthy chri∣stains.

But.

I saw them: and I learned, that from thence many preys haue bin taken: but that christianitie was planted there, I heard not. Sith therefore the haruest is so great, I woulde thinke that this were the best way of all for to plant religion there, that as the Apostles tooke away the burthen of Moses Law, lest the Gentiles should goe backe againe; so now also to alure the weake ones, it were fit to remoue the bondage of certaine things, without which the world stood well enough at the first, and now might continue as wel, if there were that faith and charity which the Gospel requireth. Againe, I sée that there bee many which doe place the chéefest part of piety in the obseruati∣on

of places, garments, meates, fasts, gestures, and sin∣ging, and by these things do iudge their neighbour, against the rule of the Gospel, from whence it commeth, that when all things should be referred to faith and charity, by the su∣perstition of these things, both are extinguished. And farre is he from the faith of the Gospel, that trusteth to such things: And farre is hee from Christian charity, that for meate and drinkes sake, will gréeue his Christian brother, whose liberty Christ hath purchased with his blood. What bitter contentions doe we sée amongst Christians? What deadly reproaches about garments of this fashion, or that fashion, and about the colour of garments, and about meates which the waters yéelde, and which the fieldes yéelde? If this mischéefe had infected but a few, it might be contemned: but now the whole world we sée is at deadly centention about them and the like. If these things wer•…•… taken away, or le•…•…t to euery mans discretion, wee should liue in greater concord, and ceremonies neglected, wé•…•… should striue onely to such things as Christ hath comman∣ded, and other Nations would the sooner receiue the Chri∣stian religion, when they should sée it accompanied with such Christian liberty. And I hope, that he which is now chéefe Bishop, Clemens by name, (which signifieth Milde∣nesse, who is, animo, pietate{que} clementissimus, both for his na∣ture and godlinesse most milde) to that end he may draw al men to the fellowship of the Church, will mittigate all those matters, which haue hitherto kept backe from im∣bracing the same. And I hope that he will more respect the gaine of the Gospel, then the persecuting of his owne right in all points. I heare daily complaints of diuers actions and Churches that be gréeued, but I hope he will so mode∣rate all matters, that héereafter he shall be very impudent that shall complaine.

Fish:

And I would to God that all Princes in Chri∣stendome would do the like, and then I •…•…oubt not but that Christian religion, which is now driuen into a strait, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 florish and spread most happily, if the 〈◊〉〈◊〉

nations might perceiue that they were called to the liber∣ty of the Gospel, and not to humane bondage: and that they should not be exposed to repine and spoile, but admit∣ted to be pertakers with vs of happinesse and holinesse, when they shall come amongst vs, and finde in vs true Christianity, & christian dealing indéede they wil of them∣selues •…•…ffer, more then any loue can inforce or draw from them.

But:

I hope that would be effected in short space, if that pestilent goddesse, of reuenge (which hath committed two most mighty Monarches of the world, vnto most deadly warre) were gone to the diuell, from whence she sprang.

Fish:

And I much maruell that this is not already ef∣fected, séeing as King Francis is so full of humanity, as no man more: and Emperour Charles, I suppose is sufficiently instructed by his tutors, that by how much the Lord hath inlarged his Dominions, by so much the more should hée adde daily vnto his owne clemency and goodnesse.

But:

Surely there is nothing wanting in either of them.

Fish:

Why then hath not the whole world, that which they so much desire?

But:

As yet the Lawyers and Counsellers cannot a∣grée about the limites of their dominions. And you know, that the tumults that are in Comedies, are all waies shut vp and ended wi•…•…h marriages: and in like manner are the tragedi•…•…s of Princes. But in Comedies marriages are suddainely accomplished: but amongst great Personages the matter is with grea•…•… •…•…ficulties brought to passe: And better it is to haue the wound by leasure brought to head, then presen•…•…ly to haue the soare breake out againe.

Fish:

And do you thinke that these marriages are firme bonds of concord?

But:

Truely I could wish it were so: but euen from hence I sée often times, the greatest part of warres to a∣rise: and if any warre be begunne, while one kinsman bordereth vpon another, the fire doth flame out further,

and is more hardly quenched.

Fish:

I confesse it, and doe acknowledge it to bee most true that you say.

But:

But is it méete thinke you, that for the brables of Lawyers, and the delaies of marriages, the whole world should suffer so much euill? For now there is nothing safe, and bad men may doe what they list, while it is neither peace nor warre.

Fish:

It is not for me to talke of Princes counsells, but if any would make me an Emperour, I know then what I would doe.

But:

Well, goe to, imagine that you are an Empe∣rour, and Bishoppe of Rome too if you will, what would you doe?

Fish:

Nay, rather make mee Emperour and French King.

But:

Goe to then, suppose you are both.

Fish:

So soone as I had gotten peace in my land, I will send out Proclamation throughout my Kingdome, that* 1.21 no man, vpon paine of death, should touch so much as his neighbours henne. And hauing by that means pacified all matters with my owne good, or rather (I may say) with the common good of my people; I would then come to a point about the borders or bounds of my dominions, or a∣bout some conditions of marriage.

But:

Haue you no surer bond of peace then marriage?

Fish:

Yes▪ I thinke I haue.

But:

I pray you shew it.

Fish:

If I were Emperour, •…•…s would I (without de∣lay) deale with the French King. Brother, some euill spi∣rite hath stirred vp this warre betwéene vs, and yet the contention that hath béene betwéene vs, hath not beene to death, but for rule onely: you for your part haue shewed your selfe a most couragious and valiant warriour; For∣tune hath fauoured me, and hath made you, of a King, a Captaine; that which happened to you, might haue fallen vnto me, and▪ your calamity doth admonish vs all of hu∣mane

condition: we haue both of vs found by experience, that this kinde of contending is discommodious on either side. Goe to, let vs héereafter contend the contrary way: I giue you your selfe, and I giue you your liberty; I accept of you, not as an enemy, but as a friend, let al former quar∣rells be buried in obliuion, returne vnto your own subiects a frée man, and that gratis, without any ransome, take your goods with you, be a good neighbour, and hence-forward let vs striue onely about this; which of vs shall ouer•…•…ome other in faithfulnesse, in good will, and in kinde offices, let vs not striue which of vs shal most inlarge our possessions, but who shall administer and gouerne that which he hath most holy and vprightly. In the former conflict I gat the praise of a fortunate man, but in this, he that ouercommeth shal winne farre greater glory. And truely, to me this fame of Clemency shal purchase more true commendation, then if I had conquered all France, and the fame of your grati∣tude, shall winne you more hono•…•…r, then if you had driuen me out of all Italy. Do not you enuy me that honour which I affect, and I againe shall so fauour your desire, that you shall willingly be a debtor to such a friend? Oh what mag∣nificent and plausible renowne would this curtesie winne vnto Charles through the world? What Nation would not willingly submitte themselues to a Prince so milde and curteous?

But:

You haue played Caesars part very finely. Now let me heare what you would doe if you were chéefe Bi∣shoppe?* 1.22

Fish:

It were a long whiles worke to prosecute euery point. I will tel you briefly, I would deale, that all the world should sée that he is the chéefest bishop in the church, that thirsteth after nothing, but the glory of Christ, and the saluation of mens soules. And such a course would frée the name of chéefe Bishop from all enuy, and would also purchase sound and perpetuall honours.

But.

But to returne to our former matter againe. Doe the bishops lawes and const•…•…tutions bind all that are in

the Church to obserue them?

Fish.

They do, if they be good, and confirmed by the au∣tho•…•…itie of the Prince.

But.

If the constitutions of the Church be of such force, why doth God in Deut. so straightly charge, that no man* 1.23 shall adde any thing to his lawes, or take any thing from the same?* 1.24

Fish.

He doth not adde vnto the law of God, which more plainly vnfoldeth that which lay wrapped vp before, or which doth suggest that which may make for the obserua∣tion of the law: neither doth he detract from the worde of God, who according to the ab•…•…itie of the hearers, doth de∣spence the word and law of God, reuealing some things, and concealing other some, as the necessitie of the time shal require.

But.

Suppose that the bishops, with the rest of the Church, should make a constitution, that no man (retur∣ning from Market,) should eate meate with vnwashen hands; he that should breake this constitution, should be in daunger of hell fire?

Fish.

I thinke not so, vnlesse the fault be aggrauated with contempt of publike authoritie.

But.

•…•…ath a maister of a familie the like authoritie in his* 1.25 house, that a bishop hath in his Diocesse?

Fish.

I thinke he hath, according to his proporiion.

But.

And do his commandements bind in like maner?

Fish.

Why not.

But.

I commaund that none of my houshold shall eate no Onions, or the like, what daunger is he in before God that shall breake my commaundement?

Fish.

Let him looke to that; for it is a breach of the first commaundement.

But.

But I see my next neighbour to be in daunger, and when I méete with him, I doe secretly admonish him, to withdraw himselfe from the companie of drunkards, and gamesters he settes my admonition at nought, and liueth afterward more riotously then he did before. Doth my ad∣m•…•…nition

bind him?

Fish.

I thinke so. For if we be bound by the Scripture to exhort one another while we haue time, then those which are exhorted are bound to hearken vnto, and obey the exhortations of their brethren.

But.

Then whether we counsaile, or exhort, the partie counsailed, &c. is snared.

Fish.

Not so, for it is not an admonition, but the matter of an admonition, that doth snare the conscience. For al∣though I be admonished to weare Pantofles, yet am I not guilty of any crime, though I neglect this admonition.

But.

From whence haue humane lawes their force of binding?

Fish.

From the wordes of Saint Paul, Obay those that haue the ouer-sight of you.

But.

Haue euerie constitution and ordinance of Magi∣strates, ciuill and ecclesiasticall, his power of binding the conscience?

Fish.

Yea, so it be equall, 〈◊〉〈◊〉, and lawfully ordained.

But.

But who shall iudge of this matter?

Fish.

They that made the law, must also interpret the law.

But.

He that relieueth his parents, being therunto com∣pelled* 1.26 by law, whether doth he fulfill the law or no?

Fish.

I think not. For first, he doth not satisfie the mind of the Law-giuer: secondly, there is added hypocrisie vn∣to an vnwilling mind.

But.

A man fastes, that would not fast, except the church did commaund him to fast: doth he satisfie the law?

Fish.

Now you chaunge both the Authour and letter of the law.

But.

Compare then a Iew obseruing his prescribed fasting dayes, (which he would not obserue vnlesse the law did driue him thereunto) with a christian obseruing his fa∣sting daies, which he would not obserue vnlesse the church did compell him thereunto.

Fish.

I thinke he may be pardoned, which for infirmitie

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sake borroweth a poynt of the law: but not he that ofsette purpose (and when he needeth not) shall obstinately crosse the law.

But.

If Gods laws and mens lawes do alike bind the conscience, what difference then is there betwéene them?* 1.27

Fish.

He that 〈◊〉〈◊〉 the lawes of men, doth sinne im∣mediately against man, and mediately against God, (as the Schoolemen say:) but he that breaketh the lawes of God, sinneth immediately against God, and mediate∣ly against men.

But.

What skils it whether the Uinegar, or the Worm∣wood be put in first, séeing I must drinke vp both? But what difference is there betwéene the authoritie of God, and the authoritie of man?

Fish.

A wicked question.

But.

But many do beleeue that there is great difference, God gaue a law by Moses, which may not be broken. The same God giueth lawes by Magistrates, and Sy•…•…ods of Bishops, and other Ministers, what difference is there be∣twéene them and these? Moses lawes was giuen by a man, and our lawes are giuen by men?

Fish.

Of the spirit of Moses it is not lawfull to make a∣nie doubt.

But.

What difference betwéene the prec•…•…pts of Paul, and the ordinances of bishops?

Fish.

Great difference, because that without controuer∣sie Paul wrote by the inspiration of the holy Ghost.

But.

Why is not Pauls spirit to b•…•… called in question?

Fish.

Because the consent of the whole Church is a∣gainst it.

But.

Of the spirit of Bishops a man may make some question.

Fish.

Not rashly, vnlesse the matter doth manifestly sa∣•…•…our of impietie, or filthie lucre.

But.

What say you of Councels?* 1.28

Fish.

Men must beware how they call their Decrées in∣to question, if they bee lawfully as•…•…embled and guided

by the holy Ghost.

But.

Then there may be some Councell held, so whom these things agrée not.

Fish.

There is no doubt of that, for there haue béene many wicked Councels: and if that were not so, Diuines would not haue added that distinction.

But.

It seemeth then that a man may doubt of Conu∣cels.

Fish.

Not after they be receiued, and approued by the iudgement and consent of Christian Nations.

But.

What other difference can you shew me betwéene the lawes of God, and the lawes of man?

Fish.

I desire to heare that from you.

But.

The lawes of God be vnchangeable, vnlesse they* 1.29 be such as were made to signifie or foreshew some other thing, or to hold the people in subiection for a time, which also the Prophets foretold should end, as touching their carnall sense, and which the Apostles also taught should be omitted.

2 Againe, amongst the lawes of men, there are found oftentimes wicked, foolish, and pestilent lawes, where•…•…pon they are abrogated, either by the authoritie of the higher power, or by an vniuersall neglect of the people. In the lawes of God there is no such matter.

3 Againe, mans law doth cease of his own accord, when the cause is ceased for which they were made.

4 Againe, mans law is no law, vnlesse it be approued by the consent of the people. The law of God ought nei∣ther to be examined, neither can it be abrogated. And al∣beit Moses in giuing the law gathered the voices, and re∣quired the consent of the people, yet this was not of necessi∣tie, but to make them the more guiltie, and to leaue them without excuse if they did breake them. For it is an impu∣dent part to contemne that law which thou hast appro∣ued, by giuing thy voyce and consent.

5 Lastly, forsomuch as the lawes of men, (which for the most part prescribe bodily things) are inducements to god∣linesse,

they séeme then of right to cease when any man is growne to the strength of a spirituall man, that nowe hée néede not any longer to be bounded in with such railes or bounds, so that to the vttermost of his power he be care∣full, not wittingly to offend the weake ones, nor mali∣tiously to offend those that are superstitious. As if a fa∣ther, for the better preseruing of his daughters virginity vntil she be married, doth charge hir, while she is a virgin, that she drinke no wine: but when she is growne to be of yéeres, and married to a husband, she is no longer tied to her fathers commaundement. Many lawes are like vnto medicines, or potions, which are oftentimes •…•…ltered and changed, or taken quite away, according to the na•…•…ure of their obi•…•…cts about which they are employed, the Physiti∣ons themselues also allowing the same, who if they should* 1.30 alwayes vse the same remedies which haue béene prescri∣bed by antient writers, they shoulde kill more then they should heale.

Fish.

You heap vp a number of things together, wherof some I like, and som I mislike, and som I vnderstand not.

But.

What if a bishops lawe shall euidently sauour of cou•…•…tousues, as for example, if he should ordaine that e∣u•…•…ry parishioner thr•…•…ghout his Diocesse shall twice cue∣ry yéere giue a ducket of golde to be absolued from such ca∣ses as they call episcopall cases, whereby hée may extort the more of those that are vnder his iurisdiction, do you thinke he is to be obeyed?

Fish.

I thinke he is, but in the meane time his wicked lawe is to be cried out against, but alwayes without sedi∣tion: but whence is it that the Butcher is such a Questio∣nist and sifter of matters? let Carpenters 〈◊〉〈◊〉 of their building, and Eutchers of Butchers matters.

But.

We are oftentimes troubled with such questions at feasts, and s•…•…metimes the heate is so great, that it grow∣eth to fighting.* 1.31

Fish.

Let them fight that list, I thinke that the lawes of our Emperours ought to be reuerently embraced, and

religiously obserued, euen as procéeding from God, neither d•…•…e I holde it safe, or sauouring of godlinesse, 〈◊〉〈◊〉 •…•…o conceiue, or suspitiously to speake of publique authoritie. And if there •…•…e any thing that may séeme to sauour of ty∣ranny, which yet dooth not compell men to impietie, I do holde it better to suffer it patiently, than to resist it sediti∣ously.

But.

By this meanes I confesse you prouide well for them that excell in dignitie, and I am of your minde, ney∣ther do I enuie them, but I would willingly heare what course might be taken for the liberty and good of the peo∣ple.

Fish.

God will not leaue his people destitute.

But.

But in the meane time, where is that libertie of the spirite which the Apostles promise out of the Gospel, and which Paul so often beateth vpon, crying out, that the kingdome of God is not meat and drinke, and that we that are the children of God, are not vnder a Schoolemaister, and that we shoulde be no longer in bondage to the rudi∣ments of this world, and a number of things moe: if Chri∣stians be burdened with so many constitutions more than the Iewes were.

Fish.

I wil tell you Butcher, christian libertie doth not* 1.32 consist in this, that it may be lawful for men to doe what they list, being set frée from humane constitutions, but that from the aboun•…•…ance and feruencie of the spirite, they be∣ing prepared for all weathers, (as they vse to speake) doe those things willingly and chéerefully which are prescri∣bed them, that is to say, like sonnes, and not like vnto ser∣uants.

But.

Uery wel, but vnder Moses law there were sons, and vnder the Gospell there be seruants. And more than that, I feare lest the greatest parte o•…•… men are of the nature of seruants, which are compelled by lawe to doe their due∣tie: what difference is there then betweene the old Testa∣ment and the new?

Fish.

In my opinion, great di•…•…ference. That which the

olde Testament taught vnder vailes, the new Testament* 1.33 layeth before our eies. That which the olde foretolde by figures, and shadowes, the new sheweth more cleerely. What that promised very obscurely, and afarre off, this hath exhibited for a great part thereof. That was offered to one nation onely, this dooth exhibite saluation indiffe∣rently to all. That made a few Prophets and woorthie men partakers of that excellent and spirituall grace, this hath plentifully powred out all maner of gifts, as namely of tongues, of healing diseases, of working myracles, of prophecyings, &c. and that vpon men of all ages, sexes, and nations.

But:

What is then become of all these things now?

Fish.

They are not dead, but asléepe: not perished, but ceased, either because there is no need of them, the doctrine of the Gospèl being now published ouer the worlde, or be∣cause many being but christians onely in name, want that faith whereby myracles were wrought.

But.

If myracles be néedefull for those that be vnbelée∣uers,* 1.34 and distrustfull, then now are they néedefull, for now the world swarmeth with such.

Fishm.

There are vnbeléeuers that erre of simplicitie, such were the Jewes which mu•…•…mured against Peter for receiuing Cornelius and his housholde vnto the grace of the Gospel. And such were the Gentiles, who supposed that the religion of their forefathers would saue them, and as for the doctrine of the Apostles, they accounted it strange superstition. These, at the sight of myracles were conuer∣ted. They which now distrust the Gospel, a•…•…ter so great light of knowledge, so long shining in all partes of the worlde, doe not erre of simpli•…•…itie, but being blind•…•…d with euill affections, they li•…•…t not to vnderstand. No myracles would euer reclaime such persons to a better minde. And now is the time of healing, hereafter wil be a time of ven∣geance, vpon all such as will not be healed of their errour. But to let these things passe, tell mee in good earnest, is it true that you saide, that there is libertie giuen for eating

of flesh, who list, and when they will?

But.

I did but ieast, to stirre you a little. And if such an Edict were made, the Company of the Fishmonger•…•… would be seditious. Againe, the worlde is full of Phari∣saicall persons, who can no way else get themselues an o∣pinion of holinesse, but by such obseruations. And they would neyther loose one iote of that glorie which they had gotten, nor endure that their inferiours should haue more libertie than themselues. Neither woulde this be for our commodities that are Butchers, to haue a frée vse of all things graunted, for then our gaines would be very vn∣certaine, whereas now our gaine is more certaine, and lesse subiect to chaunce and labour.

Fish.

You saide most truely, and the same discommodi∣tie would redownd vnto vs.

But.

I am glad yet, that at the last there is somewhat found, wherein the Fishmongers and the Butchers do a∣grée. Now that I may beginne to speake in good earnest, it were better (as I take it) for the christian people to bée lesse clogged with constitutions and humane ordinances, especially such as doe not tend much to godlinesse, but ra∣ther doe hurt, yet on the other side, I wil not defend them which reiect all, and care not a strawe for any constit•…•…ti∣ons of any man. Yea so péeuish are they some of them, that therefore they wil doe such and such things, onely because they are forbidden. But yet I cannot maruaile enough at the preposterous iudgement of mortall men.

Fish.

No more can I.

But.

If we suspect any daunger of loosing any ioate of* 1.35 weight from the constitutions and authoritie of the Cler∣gie, we kéepe a stirre, as if heauen and earth should goe to∣gither: but although there be so much giuen to humane authoritie, that Gods authoritie is not so much regarded as it ought to be, yet we sléepe soundly, and thinke there is no daunger at hand. And thus while we labour to shunne one rocke, wée runne vpon another more deadly, and that without any feare at all. The •…•…ishops and cleargy are to

haue that honor which is due vnto them? who denyeth it? especially if they doe according to their names: but it is a wicked thing to transferre that honour vnto men, which is due and proper vnto God, and while we are precise in re∣uerencing of men, to do little or none at all vnto God. The Lorde is to be honoured and reuerenced in our neighbour, but in the meane time we must beware, that God by this meanes be not defrauded of his honour.

Fish.

In like manner wée sée many •…•…o put so much con∣fidence in outward ceremonies, that they altogether neg∣lect those things which pertaine to true pietie, arrogantly ascribing that to their owne merites, which is due onelie to Gods mercie and goodnesse, setting downe their rest there, from whence they should procéede to greater perfe∣ction, and withall, reproaching and iudging their neigh∣bors by those things which in themselues are neither good nor bad.

But.

Yea, and one and in the same action, if there bée* 1.36 two things whereof the one is better than the other, we do euer make most reckoning of the worst parte. The bodie and bodily things are euery where more estéemed than the soule, and the things that belong to the soule. To kill a man is counted a hainous crime, and so it is, but to cor∣rupt the soule of man with pestilent doctrine, and viperous suggestions, is a sporte. If a Minister weare a Lay mans garment, he is cast into prison, and seuerely punished: but if he be found drincking and bowsing in ale-houses, and whore houses, if he be a whoremaister, if he be a gam∣ster, if he defile other mens wiues, if hee neuer study the Scriptures, yet (if he be formall) hée is for all that a pil∣lar of the Church, and nothing is sayde vnto him. I ex∣cuse not his disorderly going in apparell forbidden: but I blame this preposterous iudgement.

Fish:

Yea, if hee say not his stint of prayers at his set houres, he is an Anathema, accursed: but if he be an vsurer, or symonist, he goeth scot frée.

Fish:

If one should sée a Carthusian Friar otherwise

clad, then according to this order, or féeding vpon flesh in Lent, or vpon Fridaies, &c. how is he accursed, abhorred, detested, yea, men feare that the earth will open and swal∣low vp both the beholder and him that is beheld: but if the same man sée him lie drunken in the steéetes, or with lies and standers, raging against the good name of other men, and laying snares through crafty and subtile meanes, to intrap his poore neighbour, no man doth therefore abhorre him.

Fish:

It is as if one should sée a Franciscan Friar weare a girdle without knots, or an Augustine Friar to weare a linnen girdle in stéed of leather, or a Carmelite to go with∣out a girdle. Againe, to sée a Franciscane weare shooes, or a Crosse-bearer halfe shood, were a horrible fact, and they worthy for the same to be drowned in the bottome of the sea.

But:

Yea, of late there were with vs twoo women, counted both wise women: one of them went home and tra∣uelled before her time, and the other fell into a sweund, be∣cause they sawe a certaine canon goe before the holy Nunnes, or Uirgines (as they will be called) in the next Uillage, & walking openly without a white garment, and his black cloke vpon it: but the same woman had often seen such birdes banquetting, and reuelling, singing, and daun∣sing, kissing and ambling, the rest I will conceale, and yet they thought they neuer saw enough.

Fish:

Peraduenture that sexe is lawlesse: but you know Polithescus, doe you not? hee was very dangerously sicke; the Phisitians had often perswaded him to eate egges and white meates, but all in vaine. To the same effect did the Bishop exhort him, but he (though he were learned, and a Batcheller of Diuinity) did choose rather to die then to fol∣low, the counsells either of the B•…•…shop or of the Phisi∣tians. Then it séemed good to the Phisitians and the rest of his friends, to deceiue him by a wiie: there was a supping made for him of egges and goates milke, which they called Almond milke, he did eate it very willingly, and so conti∣nuing

some daies together, at last he beganne to amend, vntil a certaine damsel tolde him what it was, then he be∣gan to cast vp that which he had eaten. But the same man that was so superstitious in egges and milke, made no con∣science of forswearing a debt that he owed me: for when I in simplicity sent him his bill, he secretly with his naile cut it and rent it, and sware it was cancelled. What more peruerse then this iudgement? he sinned against the minde of the Church, in not obeying either the Bishop or the Phi∣sitians, and in manifest periury he had a firme conscience, that was so weake in a messe of milke.

But:

Now you make me remember a tale that I heard of late a Dominican Friar tell in his sermon, of a holy Uir∣gine that was oppressed by a young man; the swelling of her belly did plainely argue the fact: she was called before the Abbasse, and the rest of the Nunnery, the pleadeth that she was ouermatched: but you should haue cried out (saith the Abbasse) I should haue done so indéede, but it is a great offence to breake silence in the sléeping chamber.

Fish:

Now to requite your tale with the like. I was* 1.37 of late in a place where a couple of Nunnes came to visite their acquaintance; their man through forgetfulnesse had lest their portuse behinde. Good God what a stirre was there, to supper they wold not go before they had said their euensong, neither would they reade on any other booke but their owne: In the meane time, all the house tarried for their supper. To be short, their man was faine to run backe againe to their Cloister, la•…•…e in the euening hee brings their owne prayer booke: well, prayers are said, and scarsely had we supped before ten of the clocke.

But:

All this while I heare nothing worthy to be much blamed.

Fish:

Because you haue but halfe the storie. While they were at supper, those Uirgines beganne to be merry with wine: at length, hauing finished their laughter, the whole company abounded with ieasts and scoffes, not very plea∣•…•… to chaste yeares, but no man was more lasciuious

then those holy Uirgines, which would not goe to supper before they had said prayers vpon their owne booke, and after the maner of their Cloister or Couent: from •…•…∣ing they procéeded to play, to dansing, to sing bawdy songs, the rest I dare not tel: but I am afraid there was that night somewhat committed that did scantly become Uir∣gines, vnlesse these fore warnings, their lasciuious •…•…yorts, noddings, and kissings, did much deceiue me.

But:

This impiety is not so much to be imputed to the Uirgines, as to those Priests which had charge ouer them: but goe to, I wil also requite your story with such another, and such a one as I was an eye-witnesse vnto my sel•…•…e. Within these few daies there were a company clapt in pri∣son for baking of bread vpon the Lords day, which they said méere necessity droue them vnto. I condemne not this censure, but I like not the preposterous partiality of mens iudgements. A little while after vpon a Sunday, called Palmes sunday, by chance I was to goe to the next Uil∣lage: there, about foure of the clocke after dinner, it was my hap to méete with I know not whether I may call it, a ri∣diculous, or a miserable spectacle: I suppose that no drun∣ken feasts had euer more filthinesse: some réelde this way and that way with wine, euen as a ship left at sea without* 1.38 a guide, is tossed of the windes and the waues. There were some that went arme in arme to hold by one another, and yet so weake they were, that they were stil downe, and could hardly rise againe. Many of them were crowned with oaken leaues. A certaine Seignior amongst them, playing the foster-father of Bacchus, was carried like a packe vpon mens shoulders, in that manner as men vse to carry a dead corps, his féet vpward, and his head down∣ward, with his face towards this porters legges, lest hée should choke himselfe with vomiting, if he had béene vp∣ward, he did pitteously bewray the hose and shooes of those porters that came behinde: neither was any of the porters sober: for the most part they did nothing but laugh, but in such sort, as any man might easily perceiue them to be be∣sides

their wits. The fury of Bacchus had so possessed them all, and with this shew they went through the City euen in the open day light. If these men had but tasted an egge, they should haue béene haled to prison, as if they had killed their father, whereas for loosing the sacred sermon, for neg∣lecting the publike worship of God, & for cōmitting so hor∣rible intemperancy, & that vpon so holy a day, & in so pub∣like a manner; to the great offence of God, and griefe of the godly, no man punished thē, no man was angry with them.

Fish:

Neuer maruaile much at that: for in the middest of the City, in Ale-houses that be next vnto the Church, vpon Sabaoth daies and other holy daies, you shall haue them tipling, singing bawdy songs, dancing, quarrelling, and fighting, with so great noise and tumult, that neither the sermon can be heard, nor any holy businesse be perfor∣med without disturbance. If the same persons should at the same time but mend a shooe, or eate a pigge vpon a Fri∣day, they should bee seuerely punished for a most deadly sinne. And yet the Lords day was chéefely ordained to this end; that men might be at leasure to heare the doctrine of the Gospel, and therefore are men then forbidden to worke bodily worke, that they might be at leasure to informe their mindes with the wil of God. Is not this strange per∣uersenesse of mens iudgements?* 1.39

But.

Uery strange. Now in the fast it selfe, which is prescribed in Poperie, there be two things, one is the ab∣staining from meate; the other is the choise of meates. E∣uery one knoweth the first to be according to Gods com∣maundement: but the other is, not onely humane, but also contrary to the doctrine of the Apostle, howsoeuer we would excuse the matter, yet here also by a pr•…•…posterous iudgement it is lawfull for the people to suppe, and it is no fault in them; but to taste of meate forbidden by man, and* 1.40 permitted by God, & his seruants the Apostles, is a deadly sin counted. What a heinous offence would men account it, to receiue the holy sacrament of Christs bodie and blood with vnwashen hands▪ and indeed it is a •…•…ault, but h•…•… 〈◊〉〈◊〉

little do they feare to receiue the same with anwashen hart, and a minde defiled with peruerse and wicked lusts?

Fish.

Yea, how many Priests are there, which woulde rather die then minister the Sacrament in a Cuppe, not yet consecrated by the Bishop, or in such garments as they vsually weare euery day: but amongst these that are so af∣fected, how many do we sée, which are no whit afraide to come to the holy Table, béeing as yet full and foule with the former nights surfetting, gurmandizing and drunken∣nesse? It is forbidden by humane constitution, that no person that is base borne, lame, or poreblind shal be admit∣ted to the holy Ministrie: and here how strict are w•…•…? And yet in the meane time we admit euerie where, such as bée vnlearned, gamsters, drunkards, souldiers, cutters, and ruffians. They will say perhaps, they know not the dis∣eases of the minde: but I speake not of secret defects, I speake of such as are more open in the view of al men, then the defects of the bodie be.

Againe, there be great ones that make no bones (as the saying is) of oppressing the liberties, and priuiledges of ec∣clesiasticall* 1.41 persons, neither yet of ioyning vnto their own houses, such houses as are part of the Churches inheri∣tance, and were giuen by the deuotion and liberalitie of godly and well disposed persons, for the relieuing of such as are aged, and sicke, and poore & néedy in the Parish. And yet they séeme vnto themselues very great Christians, if they can rage, and play the mad men against such as omit a ceremonie, leaue out a Collect, or obserue not euerie holy day, or holy day euen, and the like.

Bu.

Well, let them go, and leaue them to the Lord, who will méete with such hypocrites well inough. Let vs now talke of fish and flesh another while.

Fish.

With a good will. Let vs returne then to our former* 1.42 speach of fasting, and fish-eating. I haue heard that the lawes of the church do expressely except children, old folks, sicke persons and weake, great labourers, women with child, giuing sucke, and very féeble.

But.

And the same haue I also often heard.

Fish.

I haue also heard of an excellent Diuine, Gerson I thinke his name is, that hath added this, that if there bée any cause of the like moment, with those which the canons of the Church do except by name, that then also the force of the law doth cease. For there be peculiar habites of states of mens bodies, which do make the restraint of meat more daungerous than an euident disease. And there be secret diseases which yet do not appeare, which in truth may bée so much the more dangerous. And they which compel chil∣dren, or very old folkes, or sicke and féeble persons, either to taste, or to eate fish, doe commit a double sinne, first against brotherly charitie: Secondly, against the mind and mea∣ning of the Church, which would not haue them wrapped in a law, which cannot keepe it without their owne de∣struction, or danger.

Whatsoeuer Christ did institute, he instituted it to the health both of soule and bodie, neither can any potentate chalenge vnto himselfe so great power, as that by his con∣stitutions he may driue any persons to endaunger their liues. As if one by fasting one night, should not be able to sleepe, and for want of sleepe, should be in danger of a fren∣zie: he that shal driue a man to this inconuenience, is (both against the minde of the Church, and against the will of God) a murtherer of his neighbor. Princes so often as they sée cause, do make lawes to punish men by death: what* 1.43 they may do I do not define; this I thinke I may say, that they should deale more safely, if they did not punish any by death, but for such causes as are expressed in the holy scrip∣tures. In heynous crimes, the Lord doth call men away from the vttermost bond of circumstance that may leade thereunto, as in the case of periurie, he forbiddeth to swear at all; to kéepe men from murther, he forbids men to be an∣grie. We for a humane constitution doe driue men to the vttermost bound or verie point of manflaughter. But so of∣ten as there appeareth any probable cause, it is the part of charitie to exhort our neighbours, vnto those things which

the weakenesse of his bodie doth require. And if there ap∣peare n•…•… cause, yet it is the dutie of christian charitie, fa∣uourably to interpret the matter, that it might be done with a good minde, vnlesse he that wil eate, shall shew ther∣in a manifest contempt of the lawes. And such as shall con∣temptuously, and seditiously, eate any thing that is forbid∣den by law, the ciuill Magistrate doth iustly punish. But what euery man may eate in his own house, for the health of his bodie, it is for Physitians, and not for Magistrates to determine.

But if hereupon also any shall be so wicked as to raise any tumult, let him be guiltie of sedition, and not he that prouideth for his bodily health, not breaking either Gods law or mans law. And such is the lenitie and moderation of the Church of Christ, that vpon good cause, they will of their owne accord stirre vp men to vse such things as the health of their bodie shall require, and which their licences or charters wil also arme men against the accusations and backbitings of ill disposed persons.

It may be called zeale, if any man shall deale seuere∣ly with his owne body, for euerie man is best knowne vnto himselfe; but where is the pietie, or where is the cha∣ritie of these men, who contrarie to the law of nature, con∣trarie to the law of God, and contrarie to the meaning of the Church, would enforce their weak brother vnto death, or to some kinde of disease more cruell than death it selfe?

But.

Your speach makes me to remember a storie of •…•…ne* 1.44 Mounsier Eros, a learned man, and now verie old, he would neuer eate any flesh vpon Fridayes, nor in Lent, and yet by reason of diuerse infirmities that vexed him, he had a li∣cence or dispensation from the Bishoppe to eate what hée would. This Mounsier Eros for his health •…•…ake, went on a time to Feruentia, and I in kindnesse bare him companie. Being come to Feruentia, he turned into the house of an old friend of his, who had often by letters inuited him thither. This friend of his was a man of great wealth, and autho∣ritie.

He came to a fish dinner, but Eros began to be verie daungerously •…•…icke, there was an armie of diseases vppon him, the ague, the headach, vomiting, the stone, &c. This host, although he saw his friend in great daunger, yet durst not giue him one bit of flesh. And why thinke you? he saw causes inough why he might lawfully doe it, and he had séene the Bishops dispensation, but he feared the tongues of men. And now the disease was growne so farre vppon him, that it was in vaine to giue him any.

Fish.

What did Mounsier Eros? I know the nature of the man, he had rather die, then to doe any thing that might procure his friend any enuie.

But.

He shut himselfe into his Chamber, and for three dayes togither he liued after his olde maner: his dinner was an Egge onely; his drinke was water boyled with Sugar. So soone as the Ague had left him, he took his horse, and carried his diet with him.

Fish.

What was that?

But.

Almond milke in a Flagon Bottle, and Raisins in the Sunne in a Bagge. When he came at home, he had a •…•…itte of the stone, and hee kept his bedde for it a whole moneth togither. Now because he did eate euery day an Egge at his friends house, there followed a horrible ru∣mour after his departure of eating of flesh, and in that furious manner it was aggrauated, as if he had poysoned te•…•…ne men, and this rumor was spread as farre as Paris: What doe you thinke to be the fittest remedy against such offences?

Fish.

The best remedie that I know, is this, let them powre all their chamber pots vpon their heads, and if they chaunce to méete you, stoppe your nose vntill you are past them, it may be that so they may be ashamed of their fol∣lie.

But.

Certainely Preachers shal doe wel, sharpely to reprooue this Pharisaicall impietie. But what thinke you of that hoste?

Fish.

He séemed to be a wise man, who knew full well

what Tragedies vpon friuolous occasions would be 〈◊〉〈◊〉 by the foolish people. But it is now time to returne from this long digression, to our former purpose.

But.

There is no losse of time in this digression, it is to the purpose, vnlesse perhappes you haue any thing else to adde to that which hath béene sayd already concerning hu∣mane constitutions.

Fish.

Truly, to mée it séemeth that hée is not a right ob∣seruer* 1.45 of mens lawes, which doth negl•…•…ct the meaning & drift of the lawe-makers: for hée that vpon holy dayes ab∣staineth from handy labour, and yet in the meane time is not at leisure to heare Sermons, and to ioyne with the con∣gregation in the exerc•…•…es of Gods worshipp•…•…, •…•…oth neglect the chiefest thing for which the festiuall day was institu∣ted: for therefore is one good worke then forbidden, that a better might be doone in his stéede: but they which leaue their ordinary businesse, onely to haunt tauerns, and har∣lots houses, to fight and brawle, to be great drinkers, and riotous, &c. they are double violaters of the holy festiuall day.

But.

And I knowe diuers which woulde choose, rather to die, than to minister the Sacrament, if by chaunce they had tasted any mea•…•…e that morning, or if but one droppe of water (while they wash their mouth) should chaunce to slippe downe their throate. And yet the same persons haue confessed, that at the same instant they haue carried some priuy grudge against certaine persons, whom they would haue killed, if fit oportunitie would haue serued, neyther did they make any scruple or doubt to come to the holy ta∣ble of the Lord with this bloody minde.

Fishm.

And as prepostereus are men in their iudge∣ments* 1.46 concerning vowes. There is no vowe more reli∣gious than that of baptisme. Now he that hath vowed a monasticall life &c. and afterward vpon iust cau•…•…e changeth his garment, or his place, is sought for as if hée had poyso∣ned his father, he is apprehended; haled, and pulled, impri∣sond, and bound, & many times put to death for the honour

of his order. But they whose life is directly contrary vnto the vowe which they made in baptisme, while they giu•…•…* 1.47 themselues wholy to serue mammon, their belly, and the pompe of this worlde, they are had in great accompt, ney∣ther are these men charged with the crime of violating their vow, neither are they accompted apostataes, or back sliders, but good christians.

But.

He is punished, that (being mooued by some vr∣gent* 1.48 cause) dooth sweare a false oath, but they that mingle euery third word with a false oath, are not punished.

Fish.

These doe not sweare of set purpose, or in good ear∣nest.

But.

By the like reason you may excuse him that killes a man, so hee did it not in earnest, or of sette purpose. To sweare a false oath is not lawfull, either in ieast or earnest. And it is a more hainous crime to kill a man in ieast, than in anger. What infamy dooth pursue a maide that hath slipt aside, but a slaunderous and backbiting tongue, with a heart fraught with hatred and malice or a greater euill, and yet no body woondreth at them: there is no lawe for* 1.49 them. Where is not the lightest theft punished more se∣u•…•…rely than adultery? No man will willingly conuerse with one that is stained with the infamie of theft: but to be familiar with one that is loa•…•…en and couered ouer with a∣dulteries is a great credite, and a point of good neighbour∣hoode accompted. No man will bestowe his daughter vp∣on* 1.50 a common hangman, which for his stipend dooth exe∣cute the lawes, but we do like well to haue affinitie with a common souldier, which hath often against the will both of the parents and magistrates serued in a mercenarie warre, which hath bin defiled with so many whoredoms, rapes, sacrileges, murthers, & other most hainous crimes, which either in the wars themselues, or in going to them, or returning from them, are wont to be committed, such a one doe we make choise of to be our sonne in lawe: such a one that is worse than any hangman doth a virgine doate vpon, and that we accompt great nobilitie that i•…•… g•…•…ten

by mischiefe and villanie. Hée that taketh away a mans mony, is hanged, but that they by purloyning the common* 1.51 stocke of Churches and towneships, by monopolies, by v∣suries▪ yea by a thousand wiles, and deceitfull trickes d•…•…e spoyle many, are reckoned amongst the chiefe men of the parish.

Fish.

So, they that giue poison to some one person, are* 1.52 punished by the lawes as a poysoner, but they that infect and kil the people with infected wines and corrupted oiles, are lawlesse.

But.

I haue knowne some Monkes so superstitio•…•…s,* 1.53 that they would thinke themselues in the handes of the 〈◊〉〈◊〉, if by chaunce their holy vesture were left off, but al∣though they giue themselues to lying, and slaundering, to drunkennesse and enuie, they feare no such matter.

Fish.

And such ideotes a man may finde amongest vs* 1.54 many, who do not thincke their house safe from the power of the diuell, and malice of witches, and wicked spirites, vnlesse they haue consecrated holy water, or a holy candle, or a horse shooe nailed vpon their thresholde, but they feare not their houses wherein daily God is prouoked by so ma∣ny meanes, and the diu•…•…ll is daily worshipped.

But.

And howe many are there that trust more to the helpe of the virgine Marie, or of Saint Christopher, than of Christ himselfe. The m•…•…ther of Christ they worship with candles, images, and songs, but Christ himselfe they doe most obstinately and stowtly offend with their wicked liues. And for such trifles as these and others that we haue spoken of, how great breach is there of brotherly charitie? how bitter hatred and hart-burning? what virulent back∣biting and traducing of mens names? Against which, both Christ in the Gospel, and Paul in his Epistles doe vehe∣mently inueigh: And which all Diuines and Preachers should strongly beate downe.

Fish.

Indéede it 〈◊〉〈◊〉 •…•… so: but there be ma•…•…y amon∣gest them, who h•…•… •…•…ather haue the people, and prin∣ces, and bishops at that passe, than otherwise. And againe,

ther be which do no more sauor or vnderstand these things than the common people doeth, or if they doe vnderstand them, they dissemble their knowledge, taking more care for the belly than for the Lorde Iesus. Héereupon it com∣meth to passe that the people being on euery side corrupted with preposterous iudgements, are confident where there is cause to feare, and afraide where there is no daunger. There they stand at a stay, where they ought to goe for∣ward, and there they march forward, from whence they ought to retire. And from these so ill taught, if a manne shoulde attem•…•…t to plucke any thing away of their olde cu∣stomes, they would crie out that hee is a raiser of se•…•…ition: as if it were sedition for a man, by good medicines, to re∣claime or purge a bodie corrupted, which vnskilfull Phy∣sitians haue had long in handling, and brought to a natu∣rall habite of corruption. But it is time to breake •…•…ff this complaint which hath no end.

But.

As I was lately reasoning of these matters at sup∣pe•…•…, by ill hap there was a certaine fellow in presence that was lowsie, ragged, pale, lanke, drie, and with a withered erabtree face very ghastly, he had scarce thrée haires vpon his scull, so often as hée spake he shut his •…•…ies, they said hée was a diuine: he called mée a disciple of Autichrist, and many other things he babbled out.

Fish.

What saide you? were you mute?

But.

I wished h•…•…e might haue one mite of a sober mind in so filthy a braine, i•…•… he had any braine at all.

FINIS.

Notes

• * 1.1

  Discommo∣dities of fish∣eati•…•…g.
• * 1.2

  Note that of the Phisitian.
• * 1.3

  The Butcher discourseth out of the Bi∣ble.
• * 1.4

  Of the re∣•…•…traint of meates vnder the Lawe.
• * 1.5

  Of our liber∣t•…•… vnder the Gospel.
• * 1.6

  Obiect.
• * 1.7

  Answer.
• * 1.8

  The choyce of meates abrogated.
• * 1.9

  Similies.
• * 1.10

  1
• * 1.11

  2
• * 1.12

  3
• * 1.13

  4
• * 1.14

  5
• * 1.15

  6
• * 1.16

  Ofeating swines flesh.
• * 1.17

  Why the Ma∣cabees refusd to eate swines flesh.
• * 1.18

  Of children dying with∣out baptizing.
• * 1.19

  Math •…•… 29. & hebr 2. 3. & hebr. 10. 28
• * 1.20

  Humane ob∣seruations to be arbitrary, and why.
• * 1.21

  The Fishm. playeth the Emperour.
• * 1.22

  The Fishm. heere playeth the Bis•…•…op.
• * 1.23

  Obiect.
• * 1.24

  Answer.
• * 1.25

  Of the master of a familie, his authority.
• * 1.26

  Of constrai∣ned obedi∣ence.
• * 1.27

  The 〈◊〉〈◊〉 betweene Gods lawes and mens lawes.
• * 1.28

  Of Councels and their au∣thoritie.
• * 1.29

  Other deffe∣rences be∣tweene the lawes of God and the lawes of men.
• * 1.30

  A s•…•…t simili∣tude.
• * 1.31

  Howe wee should carrie our 〈◊〉〈◊〉 to∣wardes the lawes establi∣shed by pu•…•…∣like authoritie
• * 1.32

  Wherin chri∣stian liberty consisteth.
• * 1.33

  The diff•…•…ence betweene the olde and new Test•…•…ment.
• * 1.34

  Of Miracles.
• * 1.35

  Man must be so honoured as God be not defrauded of his honour.
• * 1.36

  Cases of pre∣post•…•…rous iudgement.
• * 1.37

  Holy virgins.
• * 1.38

  Most beastly drunk•…•…nnes.
• * 1.39

  Of fasting.
• * 1.40

  Of receiuing the Sacramēt.
• * 1.41

  Deuourers of Church lands which were first giuen to the vse of the poore.
• * 1.42

  Of fasting & fish-eating.
• * 1.43

  Princes may punish by death.
• * 1.44

  M•…•…unsier Eros.
• * 1.45

  The end why mens lawes are made must be considered.
• * 1.46

  Vowes.
• * 1.47

  Vow of Bap∣tisme.
• * 1.48

  False oathes.
• * 1.49

  adulterie and The•…•…t.
• * 1.50

  A 〈◊〉〈◊〉, a common sol∣d•…•…r.
• * 1.51

  Thieues.
• * 1.52

  Poyso•…•…ers.
• * 1.53

  Superstitious Monk•…•…s.
• * 1.54

  Fo•…•…lish armor agenst the di∣uell.